Nov 102014
 

As I informed you in MBrig Oubridge 1ay, I have broken with the habit of a lifetime and stopped voting for Plaid Cymru, a party I ceased to believe in decades ago. One of the reasons for my losing faith in Plaid Cymru was its infatuation with the Green Party, and its desire to cover Wales with wind turbines (a position from which it has now retreated). So, as you might guess, among the parties I shall definitely not be voting for in future is the Green Party of Englandandwales. I’m dealing with this subject now because there is talk of another electoral pact between Plaid Cymru and the Greens.

Plaid began to get seriously enamoured of the Earth-botherers back in the late 1980s, which was almost certainly connected with the fact that at the June 1989 European elections the Green Party (formerly known as the Ecology Party) gained 99,546 votes in Wales, 11.1% of the total votes cast, and a massive increase of 10.9% on the party’s performance in 1984. In fact, the Green’s total vote was not far behind Plaid Cymru’s 115,062. Someone in Plaid Cymru who could do big sums calculated that if the two numbers were combined then the result would be, well . . . a big number. That’s my take on it, but Cynog Dafis would have us beleve that the links between Plaid Cymru and the environmental lobby go back further, as he explains in Plaid Cymru and the Greens: Flash in the Pan or a Lesson for the Future? which I advise you to read, as I shall refer to it later, and also because I get a mention! (Did I really say that!)

*

The first test of this love-in came at the 1991 Monmouth by-election following the death of Sir John Stradling Thomas when Mel Witherden stood as a Plaid / Green candidate. He came fifth, with 277 votes, behind the Monster Raving Loony Party. Admittedly, Monmouth is not ferile ground for Plaid, but the Plaid candidate at the 1987 General Election got 363 votes. (There was no Green candidate in 1987.) In the 1992 general election Witherden stood again, this time winning 431 votes, an improvement of sorts. Though the real significance of Monmouth was what the candidate said some time later. In essence, Witherden confessed that many Greens refused to vote for a joint candidate because, quite frankly, they were anti-Welsh, and displayed crude, colonialist attitudes. Which was no more than many nationalists suspected, and for which some of us had clear evidence. Damning proof of Green attitudes from a Green Party member.

The sort of attitudes Cynog Dafis was to learn about the hard way. In the paper linked to above he talks of meeting leading Greens from Arfon and Meirion, John Nicholson and Chris Busby, who were outraged that community councils in Gwynedd conducted their business in Welsh (which presumaChrisBusbybly prevented them from taking over the meetings), and that their kids were being taught Welsh in schools. Dafis says, “I tried to respond, rather lamely, and through rational defence rather than counter-attack, but I came from the meeting feeling quite shaken”. Rarely does one come across a passage from a leading Plaidista that so perfectly sums up Plaid Cymru’s fundamental weakness when confronted with naked racism and colonialism. In such circumstances “rational defence” will get you nowhere. When faced with colonialist bigotry like that the only response must be: ‘You don’t like Wales the way it is? – then fuck off home!’

(Following the Fukishima nuclear accident in 2011 Busby sought to capitalise by selling his anti-radiation pills online and suggested that the Japanese government was deliberately spreading cancer throughout the country in order to hide or disguise the ‘clusters’! He has a number of companies selling £25 reports, his self-published books and assorted medicinal products that experts believe do nothing except enrich Chris Busby.)

*

Despite this insight into the Green colonialist mindset Cynog Dafis stood at the 1992 General Election on a Green-Plaid ticket in Ceredigion and Pembroke North. He gained the seat from the sitting Liberal Democrat MP Geraint Howells with a majority of 3,193. To a number of nationalists at the time, myself included, Howells was a good old stick, a Welshman of the old school, and preferable to Dafis, especially if the latter was going to dance to some hippy tune for the duration of the parliament. Though there remains some dispute as to whether Dafis was ever a joint Plaid-Green candidate, certainly, the official record lists him for posterity as a Plaid Cymru candidate, and some grouplets within the Green Party insist he was never formally adopted. Whatever the truth of his position, Plaid’s leadership, Dafis to the fore, had convinced itself that the party needed Green votes to win Ceredigion, and perhaps other seats.

So were the Green votes influential, even decisive? Well, let’s look at the neighbouring constituencies where no deal was struck to see if they can point us towards an answer. To the south, in the Pembroke constituency, the Green candidate got 484 votes, or 0.8% of the vote. To the east, in Brecon & Radnor, the Green candidate limped in last with 393 votes, or 0.9% of the vote. Moving north, into Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, there the Greens – in the form of Busby’s mate, Bill Pritchard – were ecstatic over their 471 votes and 1.8%.  Though in Carmarthen the Greens couldn’t even find a candidate. The flash-in-the-pan nature of the Green Party’s 1989 Euro election result was betrayed at the first ‘serious’ election, which also told us that Plaid Cymru would have comfortably won Ceredigion and Pembroke North without any pact or agreement with the Greens.

After which it was all downhill, and to cut a long story short . . . in July 1995 the inevitable, yet amicable, parting of the ways came, and here’s an extract from the statement announcing the divorce, taken from Dafis’ document: “‘a bridge was built between the indigenous people of Wales and those who had moved here to live’ for progressive and enlightened purposes”. (I bet you want to read that again!) So condemning Welsh community councillors for speaking their own language is progressive and enlightened! Now if I’d made up that statement in an attempt at ridicule or sarcasm I would be rightly criticised, but a Plaid Cymru luminary who bent over backwards to accommodate a bunch of arrogant, dictatorial and often racist immigrants can write such bollocks without any sense of irony. But that’s all in the past, and I’m not a man to bear a grudge (yes, that is sarcasm) so what of today’s saviours of the planet?

*

One worth noting, for the wrong reasons – though I assure you I have no evidence that he sells pills of any description – is that five-letters-a-day (to the editor) man, John Childs, who has opinions on just about everything. I mention him because he has imposed himself on the Treboeth neighbourhood in Swansea, an area close to my heart, and indeed close to where I was raised. I recall my father telling me that, pre-war, once you’d left Brynhyfryd Square and started walking up Llangyfelach Road into Treboeth you automatically switched from English to Welsh. Treboeth was the home patch of Daniel James (‘Gwyrosydd’) writer of Calon Lân. Also where Dewi ‘Pws’ Morris has his roots, and I understand Cynog Dafis himself was born there. Nowadays the name Treboeth is seen in newspapers and other publications on a daily basis when people read the opinionated and offensive drivel of an English environmentalist.

Another who feels Swansea cannot do without him is young Ashley Wakeling (or Ŵakeling?), who is contesting the upcoming by-election in the Uplands ward. ‘So who is he?’ I hear you ask. Young Mr Wakeling is a student, and last year he was the Green candidate back home in Maidstone. Here we have a young Green who knows nothing about the city he’s just moved to, but clearly believes that such ignorance is no obstacle to him standing for election to the body running that city. It’s incredible. I sincerely believe that no one should be allowed to stand for election tMatt Cookeo any local authority until they have lived in the area for a minimum of five years. Why should we demand that taxi drivers have more local knowledge than those getting paid to run a city? Another candidate recently announced was Matt Cooke in Torfaen.

Then we have the much more mature – at 27 – Chris Were, alleged to be deputy leader of the Wales Green Party’, though how one can hold any position in an organisation that doesn’t exist is beyond my ken. Were may be 27 but he prefers to behave like a 12-year-old, as his mocking of Wales testifies. (And the silly boy can’t even spell ‘innit’!) Were was a Green candidate in this year’s memorable European elections, in which the Greens achieved 33,275 votes, or 4.5% of the total, proving yet gain what a blip that 1989 result was that set Plaid Cymru hearts all a-flutter. Ah! those European elections of May 2014, memorable because I sincerely believe that the Ukip MEP elected, a Mr Nathan LeeChristopher Were Gill, will provide hours of enjoyment in the years ahead for those of you in possession of the gift of schadenfreude. (A gift that I, alas, have been denied.)

Finally, and much closer to home, I had a run-in not so long ago with an environmentalist living just up the road. It all started with a couple of letters to the local weekly rag on the subject of raising council tax on holiday homes; one headed, ‘Second home owners keep Gwynedd economy alive’, the other arguing that it would be ‘racist’ to increase council tax, before introducng the spectre of arson. Naturally, I responded, then the following week there was a reply that concluded with a reference to “the burning of second homes by Nationalist extremists”. The two letters mentioning arson are almost certainly phoney, and the second cleverly distorts what I actually said. The exchange can be found here.

The debate rumbled on a bit, and provoked a letter from Andrew Currie, the environmentalist who lives just up the road from me. According to Currie, I had missed the point that, “coastal towns and villages came into being because of tourism in Victorian times”. In other words, there was really nothing here until English tourists ‘discovered’ Wales. This is a reminder that the most virulent and outspoken bigotry doesn’t always come from the usual suspects, because what Currie is exposing here is the traditional ‘justification’ for colonialism – ‘They couldn’t manage without us’. The full exchange can be found in this post.

*

I can only assume that whoever is gently blowing on the embers of an extinguished love is prompted not by renewed passion but by the very pragmatic consideration that with Assembly elections due in 2016, and Plaid defending a majority of just 1,777 in Ceredigion, the 1,514 votes won by Chris Simpson, the Green candidate in 2011, could be critical for Plaid’s chances of retaining the seat. It might also be worth pointing out that while this figure of 1,514 might look impressive, it should be borne in mind that Simpson was the only constituency candidate the Greens fielded in 2011, so the party concentrated almost all its resources on Ceredigion. A more meaningful assessment of Green support would be that in the (second preference) regional list section they got just 32,649 across the whole of Wales, roughly ten thousand votes ahead of the Socialist Labour Party and the BNP.

This is a party that can deliver, at most, thirty to forty thousand votes across the whole country – and that’s if all Greens are prepared to vote for joint candidates, which of course they aren’t. And not only will joint Green-Plaid candidates alienate most Green supporters, they’ll also piss off quite a few Plaid voters – and there are many more of the latter. A further consideration could be explained as follows. The Greens are an English party attracting English votes, therefore, as few of these votes will transfer to a joint candidate in the event of a pact, it makes more sense to have a Green candidate in Ceredigion, grabbing a thousand or two votes, rather than see those English Green votes transfer to a party that could beat Plaid Cymru.

Crude, electoral considerations aside, the bigger question has to be, why would Plaid Cymru – or any self-respecting party, come to that – want an electoral pact with the Green Party of Englandandwales? A party that refuses to recognise Wales as a country. A party that has members and activists who are positively racist in their attitudes to anything Welsh. A party whose luminaries see Wales as a backward territory ripe for ‘improvement’ by superior beings like them, with we Welsh viewed – at best – as obstructive primitives to be shouted down and brushed aside. Whichever way we look at it, a pact with the Greens could be very damaging to Plaid Cymru, and should call into question the political nous or motives of anyone promoting such a deal.

Leave a Reply

125 Comments on "Plaid Cymru and the Green Party of Englandandwales"

Notify of
avatar
Sort by:   newest | oldest
Gareth
Guest

Well argued as usual Jac. Added to this is the nonsense of Plaid’s anti-nuclear power policy. This means that in Ynys Mon, supposedly one of their heartlands, they are campaigning to close down the island’s largest employer. Crazy.

Red Flag
Guest

Living in Ynys Mon I can assure you that that comment is total bollocks. Plaid’s position is very clear – nuclear is UK strategic and neither the Ynys Mon Council nor the Welsh Government has any say or power over the existing plant, the new one, or anything that the new one needs to be built. In fact UK Strategic means not even Parliament in Westminster has any say in the matter – all decisions are made at Cabinet level. Any consultations at any level are purely ‘advisory’.

Plaid’s position is if the people of Wales want control over these things then the only way to gain it is by gaining independence first. Without that, even if every person in Wales was against Wylfa Newydd it would matter not one jot – because it simply has nothing to do with them.

You of course new this because it is widely publicised – which begs the question then as to why you are attempting to be a rather shoddy Agent Provocateur.

dafis
Guest

Perhaps late 80’s early 90’s was a time for forming “joint ventures” of the political kind. I rated Cynog as one of the better Plaid politicians although he seemed ill at ease with aspects of politics, like processes, formalities etc, and of course an early player in Cymdeithas yr Iaith. Even if he got sucked in by the superficial “rightness” of the Green Gospel at that time he should have been alerted by some of those in the Plaid team that these people weren’t quite as straight and well meaning as claimed. Green ideas are often fine in theory but when applied to idigenous activity such as farming, energy, extractive industry they soon become a kind of dictatorial (Fascist ? ) hysteria where only their way is right and all else is heresy. Some of them even compete with each other to be most “far out” on issues.

No doubt this note will provoke some robust defence but not likely to change my mind that mosy of these “evangelists” need to create their own version of green and pleasant land elsewhere and leave ours to natives and migrants who wish to integrate, Now that’s a word, integrate, you don’t hear much when these imports start to preach.

green dragon
Guest

direct quote taken from the wales green party’s policy statements

“As Wales moves towards sovereignty, we will seek membership of the European Union and the United Nations. Within these institutions, we will promote our vision of a sustainable world. We will campaign for reform of the United Nations such that UN membership is available to nations (including Wales) which are not, as yet, sovereign.”

realise it does not play into your narrative jac but this quote would seem to illustrate that the wales green party certainly does see wales as a country in its own right. but of course while the wales green party does elect its own officers and makes its own policies its also a fact that it currently remains a ‘autonomous’ section of the green party in england and wales and clearly has some way to go before it will achieve the level of organisational independence of its sister party in scotland, but trust us jac there are discussions about moving along such lines in the not too distant future already taking place among wales green party members..

afraid gareth is hopelessly out of step with plaid’s position on nuclear power – and the proposed wylfa b – as far from having a ‘anti nuclear policy’ local plaid assembly members are right behind the plans for a new nuclear plant at wylfa, and we point this out out in our latest blog post

http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/wales-own-edge-of-darkness.html

you and gareth might find that particular post of interest jac as you’ll both see that wales has no say over whether or not nuclear power stations are built n our country and that its our ‘colonial’ rulers in westminister who are imposing nuclear power on wales – a state of affairs which you surely cant be happy with?.

Llew
Guest

The early responses to Jac’s comment illustrate something that I always keep in mind. Plaid is criticised for being too green and for not being green enough. On nuclear power it is either standing up for jobs or selling out its principles, or both at the same time.

Alot of people who share left-leaning views don’t comment on this blog, which is a shame, because it is always a good discussion. Suffice to say Jac you’d have to recognise alot of people agreed with Cynog and still do. He doesn’t have a blog sticking up for him, but he has always been consistent about trying to appeal beyond just the Welsh. It is a very different political approach to yours.

I thought you had a point when commenting on green results elsewhere in Wales and how they didn’t make a difference but Ceredigion is their strongest area, and an area with above average residents who’ve come from England. Some of the Plaid councillors in Ceredigion come from England. As for Geraint Howells, it is interesting that you preferred him, as a liberal. Purely on cultural grounds?

green dragon
Guest

the quote i give jac is taken from the wales green party’s manifesto for wales, a lengthy document which obviously couldnt be posted here, but which i will email to you so that you may see the relevant piece for yourself. i wont try to pretend that some of the observations you make with regards to competing ‘outlooks’ on wales among wales green party members dont have an element of truth in them, nevertheless the wales green party is’evolving and can only go on to enjoy greater autonomy in the future. many thanks for publishing my original comment. regards gd

Albert Hill
Guest

If left leaning people refuse to comment on this blog then more fool them. You only test and strengthen your ideas through debate with those outside the comfort zone. No wonder that Wales is one of the few societies in Western Europe that is not seeing a radical revitalization of anti-establishment ideas.

treforus
Guest

It is somehow appropriate that the national party for the world’s first industrial nation seems besotted by a minor sect of incomers determined to run down such little industry as remains and return us to some long-lost paradise which in reality would be grinding poverty and a return to serfdom. Do they realise that some of us cannot take them seriously in consequence. How can economic recovery be reconciled with a doctrine that renounces growth, especially in a region that is poor already? It is total insanity.

You are quite right about bores and self-styled experts such as Childs. Interestingly, when someone occasionally writes in reply to point out that he is spouting rubbish, his self-righteous wrath is instantaneous- how dare anyone dissent.

The SNP, although left wing realised the importance of business support. Plaid’s pro-green bias means that they seem either irrelevant or actively hostile.

David Walters
Guest

I can only agree with every thing you’ve written regarding the Plaid Cymru Green party alliance of the 1980-90s,a stupide idea thought up by some of the most incompetent political leadership Plaid Cymru have ever had. However, the past is the past and needs to be left there. The only hope for Wales surviving into the next century as a distinct national entity, is for those of us who are like minded regarding what needs to be done and are prepared to come out and do it,to band together in a new organisation that can begin the process of re-educating the people of Wales into believing in their abilities as a united people to bring hope and prosperity for their children in future years. We must act very quickly before the next wave of English immigrants cross the boarder and end all hope of our national survival, In the past 25 years 600,000, immigrants have flooded into Wales from England, if in the next 25 years the same number of immigrants enter Wales, then the Welsh nation will not survive into the next century.
(Who among you is prepared to help?) if none, then will the last Welsh man standing please out the light lock the door and leave the key under the door mat, there’s an Englishman waiting to take tenancy.

Taran
Guest

“n the past 25 years 600,000, immigrants have flooded into Wales from England, if in the next 25 years the same number of immigrants enter Wales, then the Welsh nation will not survive into the next century.”

This is the only issue that matters in Welsh politics. The existence of the Welsh nation. We are constantly reminded by the wave of ‘Anglicisation’ that swamped the old industrial South… Yet between 1861 and 1911 only 227,000 English moved to southern Wales. Today we are facing a tsunami of Anglicisation!

The only solution is to keep young Welsh people in Wales and make sure that they raise large families here. It goes beyond party politics. We will keep Wales Welsh!

dafis
Guest

good question to ask of the greens before teaming up with them, if that is such a major priority, is – since we last bunked up together, how many of your members have arrived in Wales from England or elsewhere ? and of that number how many of you are in the process of learning Welsh or have completed the process of learning Welsh ? Now for a party that is able to quote detailed numbers on almost anything down to the carbon content of different bits of wood, those numbers should be easily retrieved. My money is on the Greens never having considered protection and proliferation of the native language to be a priority issue on ethical, environmental, social or political grounds.

Flavour
Guest

I am an environmentalist but vote Plaid instead of Green. I was once at Kingsnorth power station during the Climate Camp protest in 2008. There was a Green there from Pembrokeshire. She was telling me how she’d spent years in the Amazon learning indigenous languages and how it would be terrible if these languages were lost. I asked her if she had made any effort to learn Welsh. The answer was no.

green dragon
Guest

dafis you wil have lost your money im afraid – the wales greens are strongly committed to both preserving and boosting welsh. more on the wales green party’s welsh language policiy can be found on the link below if you – and others – are truly interested in what welsh greens have to say about such things.

tho it is of course much easier for some people to believe the ignorant stereotypes about the wales greens eg they are all middle class english people or have no interest in the culture of wales than it is to recognise that the welsh green party is a part of the political fabric of wales and that its a party that is not going away and which will continue to grow……and yes it would be nice to think it will one day reach the prominence in wales as that of its sister party in scotland.

http://wales.greenparty.org.uk/policy/manifesto-for-a-sustainable-society-in-wales/wel.-the-welsh-language.html

dafis
Guest

You say “dafis you wil have lost your money im afraid – more on the wales green party’s welsh language policiy can be found on the link below if you – and others – are truly interested in what welsh greens have to say about such things” . I think I will hang onto my loot until bits of policy easily pasted onto a page are converted into reality. All the Anglo parties have high faluting policy statements which are about as insincere as you can find anywhere.

I accept your assertion that it ( the Green Party ) will not go away, but I would remain of the view that its stance on our identity remains more akin to the centralist Labour than you may care to admit.

Henrietta Sandwich
Guest

Jac, I agree with you. I’m a lefty, and I say to tell those middle class “right-on” greens to BYTA FY BAW TRWYN! And get out of Wales, too.

green dragon
Guest

jac asks ” So tell us what percentage of Green Partyy members in Wales are Welsh by birth, with roots in this country? How many of the Green Party’s candidates in Wales will meet this qualification? ” no idea jac and frankly dont know of any political party in wales that collects statistics on members birth places with the odious exception perhaps of any fascist groups that might have a presence in wales eg britian first

while neither john nicholson or chris busby are members of the wales green party

green dragon
Guest

fair point jac – i guess you could say the wales green party is a work in progress

Anne Greagsby
Guest

Anthony Slaughter @as_penarth is ‘Deputy Leader’ of Wales Green Party at the present is English PotPippa is English who got 27 unopposed in ‘leadership’ election. This time she faces contender Andy Chyba also English as are many of the candidates Green Dragon I believe is Martyn Shrewsbury convicted fraudster charlatan hypnotherapist and is currently agent for green party English Ashley Wakeling Uplands Swansea council by election. He is promoting Pippa for leader the jag driving woman made her money working in the security industry/Thales/AWRE and when asked about policy regarding the Welsh language? Especially in regards to business, education, and government
She replied “As much as we love to see regional cultures live and in action, the Green Party concentrates on the bigger issues facing humanity – such as climate change and the corporatisation of democracy. These are things we really must get right if we are to leave the next generation with an environment fit for the future, and a democracy which works for everyone.” Not sure what Pippa who describes herself as a ‘victim of the comprehensive system of non education’ policy is on education in Wales. She concentrates her ramblings on legalising cannabis/fracking.

taffswellmusic
Guest

Anne I have to disagree in my experience Pippa only talks about fracking when there’s a camera pointed at her. She’s not interested in any of the grass roots work. I’ve done my research, there are too many PR disasters the worst in my opinion were the Tel Aviv airport fiasco and the immigration speech. They are an embarrassment. The latter could easily be taken out of context and made into a parody drum and bass tune for instance, as a music producer I know how easy this is!! If allowed to continue she could be a disaster for the party at UK level in the run up to the election.

Llew
Guest

Cynog’s viewpoint was valid though. I cannot ever see an independent Wales having border controls with the UK. Or Ireland having border controls with the UK although I accept at airports it is different. Calling for curbs on movement makes no sense and is not viable or desirable economically or politically. It would also not be possible in Plaid Cymru’s case as at least some the party, are actually English.

I also disagree with the criticism of CAT. It is not a problem that they have come from England. They contribute to Wales.

I don’t see Wales disappearing. In some ways it is now more established than it has been earlier in my lifetime. Change is constant and must be adapted to and dealt with. With regards to the Welsh language we face a massive challenge, but we do have a higher percentage of Welsh speakers than we did in 1991. What looked like an utter freefall in the 60s-80s has been slowed down.

dafis
Guest

Words words words, more gas than a herd of dairy cows produce. At least you get good milk out of the dairy herd. Remain to see serious commitment & action from the Green mob.

A Greagsby reports – “the jag driving woman made her money working in the security industry/Thales/AWRE …………”
say no more , isn’t that a 5star pedigree for agent provocateur material? just shifting her focus from one colonial agenda to another ?.

and A.G goes on to comment “when asked about policy regarding the Welsh language? ……” The response is typical of those operating at loftier levels where the mundane challenge of integrating into and fostering the idigenous culture is beneath their dignity. The more you probe, the worse the odour !

Ashley Wakeling
Guest

I’ve lived here 2 years, and wish to make a positive difference after over 100 hours research in the ward, alongside living here for 2 years of course! I stood for Maidstone in 2012 as a paper candidate just before I moved to University here. I WORK, LIVE and STUDY in the ward. What an appalling assault on me as a person just for trying to help!

dafis
Guest

100 hours research ! that is an appalling assault on the people of whatever part of Swansea you purport to represent. People have lived in that ward for 10’s of thousands of hours, have a huge cumulative life experience of the sorry state of local services. You come along and treat it like some kind of academic exercise. That my boy is the appalling assault, so bloody typical of the carpetbaggers that are so often criticised (and usually rightly ) in this column. You come in, swan around with your pseudo scientific approach, and slot in neatly preying on the indifference of locals who have already had a guts full of this type of intervention by experts from outside looking for the next step up the party machine.

Ashley Wakeling
Guest

100 hours research denotes time spent with residents to learn their views, because these are the people I am to represent, not the time I’ve lived in the area, which obviously extends into the thousands of hours. This is not an academic excercise! This is the future of over 17,000 people that live in the Uplands, Brynmill and Mount Pleasant area. I have had family in Uplands for decades and I resent this attitude that because I am a student I am immediately a foreigner that has no idea what has occurred in the ward before my arrival. I have been here for months before I joined the University with family. This is not a party machine excercise but an attempt to get the people of the ward truly represented. I started the petition against Uplands Costa Coffee which gained over 1000 signatures, and the Labour party ignored it. I have promised not to ignore residents in this way, because politics and becoming a councillor means you represent people. Older people should be encouraging younger people like myself into politics rather than shunning any efforts they make to make the world better in their opinion. What are we to do when all the people who have lived in the area for 20+ years are gone, and all we’ve left are people like myself?

Logger Beer - the Beer that Brought the Forest Down
Guest
Logger Beer - the Beer that Brought the Forest Down

Someone earlier mentioned Andy Chyba. No improvement on Pippa it would seem:

http://bridgendgreens.net/2013/11/06/why-i-have-withdrawn-from-the-euro-election-by-andy-chyba/

Carnabwth
Guest

OT
You are right about the ambulance service. I had the unfortunate experice of needing and ambulance to Aber hospital and neither of the crews could talk to me in Welsh. And the hospital itself had few Welsh speaking staff.

Glangwili seems little differenent. And if you ever have the unfortunate experience of being in the Chemo Unit there, you can largely forgett any Welsh language provision.

And then moving closer to home in west Carms, then you have district nurses and ART (Acute Respose Team) nurses who don’t speak Welsh. And we are talking about people who are dealing with those who are elderly and Welsh speaking and often close to death. It’s sadly a recent esperience of mine. It’s shamefull.

green dragon
Guest

with regards to ann greagsby’s comments we would like to categorically refute her wild allegations about the authorship of green dragon. we are a collection of individuals in wales and we include supporters of the wales green party, of plaid cymru and of no party at all – but what unites us is that we want to see a progressive green and nuclear free wales.

while you jac and this blog’s readers may also be interested to know that ashley wakeling’s election material for the by election cited in swansea is bilingual – unlike the election literature of other parties contesting this by election

kind regards gd

green dragon
Guest

as we commented earlier jac the wales green party is evolving, and it might be true to say that some of its members are catching up with devolution. but we like to think that in time it will adopt the hugely successful course undertaken by its sister party in scotland. while nobody would defend the comments made by andy chyba on the welsh language last year – and such comments are clearly not in any way representative of the wales green party or its membership.

the wales green party’s support for the welsh language is clear and yes its good to see this support for bilingualism being demonstarted by young ashley wakeling in swansea.

Anne Greagsby
Guest

So come clean Martyn, whoops – green dragon. Your co-conspirator Ashley promises transparency and accountability – where is yours?

Anne Greagsby
Guest

Just noticed The Challenge for Progressives / Y Her Blaengar Monday, November 24, 2014 at 6:00pm
Hosted by Compass Cymru / Compass Wales sincerely hope they’ve nothing to do with green dragon.
Martyn…whoops – green dragon new blog set up with the purpose of promoting that phoney Bartolotti for the leadership of the green party in wales and singing her praises – OMG hardly progressives of any sort then! lol

green dragon
Guest

well anne greagsby is certainly no columbo – her repeated attempts to identify those involved in the green dragon blog are embarrassingly wide of the mark, if only she spent a fraction of the time attacking the nuclear power industry in wales as she does the wales green party and some of its members, and opponents of the nuclear power industry like green dragon.

yes jac the green dragon is supporting pippa bartolotti ahead of andy chyba in the wales green party leadership contest but we of course wouldnt support the comments greagsby has attributed to pippa – if pippa did indeed make such comments. but we do know that pippa has often spoken in support of the welsh language during her time as wales green party leader. further pippa is of course bound by the same welsh language policies that every other officer of the wales green party is

sincerely
gd

Anne Greagsby
Guest

Am I wide of the mark? You are obviously cowards. Martyn even setting up a fictitious account ‘Brig Strawbridge’ to promote Bartolotti — Bartolotti – on facebook today
“A move to ‘Reserved Powers’ for Wales is a good move. It means we will actually know which powers we have. Right now it is very unclear.” ???
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-30004665

green dragon
Guest

piece of advice anne greagsby – when youre in a hole stop digging. your claims regarding the authorship of the green dragon get more bizarre with every post, indeed they are outlandish even by the notorious standards those acquainted with your history of wild and hysterical accusations have grown accustomed to.

while you are in no position to hurl accusations of cowardice around, given you are the author of a blog that makes the most vile claims and insinuations about people in the wales green party and yet you have never admitted to the authorship of the said blog – granted this may have something to do with the fact the smears and allegations the blog contains are almost certainly actionable. indeed it is almost certain they will fall foul of newly proposed ‘trolling’ legislation.

is also worth pointing out to anyone who may be unacquainted with you that before your expulsion from the wales green party last year you regularly abused plaid cymru in the same despicable manner with which you now abuse the wales green party.- yet you are now a member of plaid cymru!

yes one thing we can agree on is a move to reserved powers for wales is a good thing, as its clearly unacceptable that a welsh government can find itself dragged thru the courts when it tries to introduce legislation in an area of welsh life which is already devolved.

Anne Greagsby
Guest

No need for that level of aggression! lol -re the obscure blog authors I only suggested Martyn Shrewsbury but will add most likely aided by aided by the likes of Wanklin, Neil Wagstaff and Wakeling. Conference voted my expulsion UNCONSTITUTIONAL however so undemocratic is the green party I remained suspended and decided I was wasting my time and could use my skills under the leadership of Leanne Wood in Plaid Cymru. The level of bullying and harassment I received in the male dominated Cardiff green party was appalling but the green party didnt want to address that nor Bartolotti.

Welsh not British (@welshnotbritish)
Guest

Does anyone know if writing in all lower case helps save the planet?

Ashley Wakeling
Guest

I have wondered why all Green Dragon posts are in lower case, I wasn’t going to probe hahaha

Max Wallis
Guest

Jac – Your question: are there two Green parties in Wales is pointed, but the Green Party responders duck it.

The principal division is not over the Welsh language, but over an open collective versus a hierarchical structure with deference to a ‘leader’. Bartolotti and the leading group wants to expel me for a questioning letter in the internal Newsletter and reporting criticisms of the leaderships in England as well as Wales. I referred to the Wikipedia page on Bartolotti’s career, so she got that taken down (see at http://www.pippabartolotti.info/2014/05/page-deleted-from-wikipedia-at-request.html ). The expulsion attempt is to come to an internal Green Party disciplinary Tribunal at the end of November.

The Green Party historically was opposed to censorship, but the present leadership in Wales makes out that embarrassing exposures of the leader are disloyal – even defamation – and an expulsion issue. GreenDragon censoring of blog comments shows which side they’re on agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/we-are-backing-pippa.html

Bartolotti and the secretary Ann Were likewise suppressed criticism of deputy leader Chris Were’s sexist and misogynistic blogging (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/green-party-deputy-leader-criticised-3815133) with Bartolotti announcing that the Green Party is a “forgiving party” (except, of course, of those who criticise its leaders). As you detect, jac, we are a “fractious outfit” – we had revelled in diversity and free expression until the centralising ‘leadership’ trend developed. Bartolotti’s Tribunal against me will challenge that.

Albert Hill
Guest

So the Green Party in Wales has around 300 members, heaven knows why Plaid are bothering with them? To be seen as a nice party by London luvvies I expect. Meanwhile the Welsh working class are ignored.

dafis
Guest

if there’s only 300 we could round them up and recycle them into pellets for wood burning power stations which is so very near & dear to them !! tee hee

Welsh not British (@welshnotbritish)
Guest

The simple answer is to contact the ‘One True Green Party of Englandandwales’ and ask them about it. Either these mushes in Wales are pretending (they are) that there is a Welsh Green Party (there isn’t) or those mushes in England are lying (they aren’t) about there only being a ‘One True Green Party of Englandandwales’ (there is).

And as for the self-appointed saviour of the Uplands, why the hell does he have a to bach on the W at the start of his surname? For those not aware his name is displayed on his twitter as Ŵakeling.

green dragon
Guest

before the cheerleaders for nuclear power in wales get too excited the figure cited for wales green party membership by albert hill is hopelessly out of date, as it was recently announced that wales green party membership has increased by by 75 percent since january 2014 when membership did indeed stand at around 300. with regards to max wallis’s claims of alleged censorship on greendragon we dont publish comments which are racist or libellous – a policy we think any responsible blog authors would adopt.

jac youll see an example of ashley wakeling’s and the swanea green’s committment to bilingualism in this feature, which includes some of their election materials http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/election-news-from-swansea-and-neath.html

while with regards to the possibility of any kinds of electoral arrangements with plaid it is worth noting that the wales greens are currently running ahead of the lib dems in some poll projections for 2016, and as it stands are not that far away from gaining a seat on the welsh assembly without having to enter into any horsetrading with plaid.

green dragon
Guest

would like to know what ‘regional branch’ of the green party in england produces election materials in welsh jac? also worth recalling that the only party contesting the swansea uplands by election distributing bilingual material is the green party candidate ashley wakeling – plaid presumambly would, but the ‘party of wales’ dont appear to have even put out a leaflet in the area we are very disappointed to report.

further which party in wales – other than plaid cymru – would use language such as

“As Wales moves towards sovereignty, we will seek membership of the European Union and the United Nations. Within these institutions, we will promote our vision of a sustainable world. We will campaign for reform of the United Nations such that UN membership is available to nations (including Wales) which are not, as yet, sovereign”.

it is clear to us at greendragon that some people seem to have real difficulty in grasping the fact that the wales green party is becoming a part of the fabric of political life in wales.

wake up and smell the coffee guys (fair trade coffee naturally)

Ashley Wakeling
Guest

Regarding Wales Green Party leadership, I support NEITHER candidate and will be calling for the re-opening of nominations. I do not feel that ANY person running for this election is suitable for the role. I also feel that Wales Green Party do not need a leader as such but merely a press-contact or General Secretary without such monopoly over the party. And you can quote that if you wish. We’re a party that needs community leadership working TOGETHER for the best of the people of Wales, and at the moment, I don’t feel we’re doing that nationally, but I’m trying my darndest down here in Swansea

green dragon
Guest

The Wales Green party does have its own leader jac, who is elected by green party members in Wales. Just as green party policies which apply to wales are drawn up by members in Wales.

Max Wallis
Guest

Re. Green Dragon’s censoring by excluding comments on their Blog (item 35 above) they posted on 8 November two excuses for their failure to post up responses
# “server difficulties regrettably”… yet the delayed responses have still not appeared
# no “platform for their personal vendettas“ …. decided by a grand censor, of course.
Here, on Friday at item 35 a different excuse:
# “we dont publish comments which are racist or libellous “

My censored COMMENT of 6 Nov. 7am was in fact:
• What is this blog-owner’s stance on censoring comments, since she/he has blocked my latest comment about Bartolotti’s integrity in relation to her former business links with supplying military electronics?
• With my suspicious mind, I’m thinking the two ‘anonymous’ comments targeted at Andy Chyba and attacking Plaid Cymru might be from the blogger or a friend. Transparency is needed to show ‘Green Dragon’ is really across Welsh political parties rather than a disguised Bartolotti supporter.

Honesty is also a requirement of a censor, especially with ‘Green Dragon’ taking sides in an internal Green Party election. A Green Dragon created with this Achilles heel of the sectarian/conspiratorial left will surely remain crippled.

green dragon
Guest

Point of information jac – Ashley is not the Green Dragon’s ‘candidate’.Yes we have been very supportive of his campaign in swansea, just as we are very supportive of plaid leader leanne. As welsh eco socialists we will publicly support those in Wales who we feel reflect the Green Dragon’s values.

Yes we would agree with you in what you say about the importance of a political party having an eleced leader, and we are pleased to report we know of no plans by the wales green party to adopt Ashley’s thinking on this matter.

green dragon
Guest

Well talk about the pot calling the kettle black lol, as there really is no one more ‘conspiritorial’ or ‘sectarian’ than max wallis – evidenced by his expulsion from the wales green party last year of course. But it remains a real puzzle why wallis seems to spend his every waking online hour attacking individuals in the wales green party and eco socialist blogs, yet he has nothing to say about the very real prospect of high grade radioactive waste being produced and buried in wales.http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/wales-own-edge-of-darkness.html

While there is nothing remotely unusual about a political blog expressing its support for a particular candidate in a party’s leadership contest, a number of welsh blogs took a position during plaid’s 2012 leadership contest for example. We suspect that wallis is irked because we did not declare support his own favoured candidate for the wales green party leadership.

With regards to his claims of censorship to repeat we at green dragon do not publish comments which we feel may be libellous. We also note wallis ommitted to mention that he has had comments published on green dragon.

Anne Greagsby
Guest

Green dragon eegits! Strange no article supporting Leanne Wood in your short life – since last month! However there are several articles supporting Ashley and his fraudster agent in Swansea. And of course your support for eccentric fantasist Bartolotti which proves you are certainly NOT LEFT in any accurate sense nor eco socialists. As Jax said – more Stalinist. Even the green party’s own green left won’t have Bartolotti who describes herself as a victim of the comprehensive system of non education leaving school at 15 (which shows) not to mention all her other gaffes and jag driving nonsense – so green dragon must be rather dimwitted to support an English unionist spokesperson who doesn’t know her left from right who would be better off taking her amateur dramatics to a theatre! Or joining UKIP. And poor young Ashley = early onset…’forgetfulness’ so soon after standing in England. Oh dear! And your mate
David Richards who is camera shy on facebook promoting green dragon on your page and extreme conspiracy theorist? Another swansea dragon who gives you good advice “Also worth remembering that ‘deepthroat’ had very good reasons for staying in the shadows” couldn’t make it up..
The wales section of the green partys own AGM wasn’t quorate (note the spelling Ash) but that didn’t stop them appointing officers – I suppose including that old policeman control freak John Matthews who has been running the wales section for over a decade who was Bartolottis mentor, as she isn’t a feminist and ignorant, in a pretence of ‘gender balance’ except he created a monster. He also controls the male dominated Cardiff party which covers the whole of south wales central Assembly constituency to include himself from Abercynon, Mountain Ash because he couldn’t get a branch up and running… such eco warriors travelling such distances regularly by car whilst finger wagging at others. Real environmentalists practice what they preach.

green dragon
Guest

yawn more names plucked out of the air by the wales green party’s own ‘number one fan’, the sewer mouthed anne greagsby, Must say anne your ‘suspect list’ is growing at a rather bewildering rate – martyn shrewsbury, ashley wakeling, neil wagstaffe, davd richards, pippa bartolotti john matthews. Can you please make up your mind anne as this really must be getting most confusing for reader’s of jac’s blog.

Incidentally anne as youre apparently a member of plaid cymru’s national council http://www.partyofwales.org/womens-section/ are you speaking for the party of wales when indulging in your apparent favourite past time of anti english rants? we should be told?

No we really do like you anne honestly – you dont know how many laughs youve given us – but we have to admit we hope we never fall unconscious in a snow drift near your home.

Anne Greagsby
Guest

Anti English rants? Where are they then?! I didn’t accuse john matthews of writing any blog because hes illiterate and it seems you don’t actually take the trouble to actually read accurately. However I think this green dragon is way too arrogant, aggressive and bad tempered to listen to reason. No-one with half a brain who is truly left or an environmentalist would support Bartolotti – why on earth would you? I’ll willing to listen to your reasons! This is solely my opinion based on my research and experience. So pleased that you are having such fun, like sniggering schoolboys, while being so cowardly, hiding behind anonymity whilst mocking free speech and fair comment.

dafis
Guest

I missed the Bumblebee show on Thurs p.m. but I am informed that Leanne Wood pushed her boat out saying clearly that – London has made Wales poor. It serves London’s needs to keep Wales poor.

When I read that I thought well bloody hell the girl’s woke up ! If she keeps saying things like that she’ll start a fire in the country, convincing the Welsh people of these truths, bring on some hard hitting policies for the rebuilding of a nation, ditch the silly pink metropolitan soft left nonsense, and we have something to work on. We as scribblers must now keep reminding Plaid that they’ve struck some good chords and they must keep doing so until we get some real results and then redouble the effort further.

green dragon
Guest

considering the questions selected by the lovely david (as ben elton once called him) had virtually nothing to do with wales, and the fact that the audience was rigged – note the question chosen from welsh tory leon bancroft – leanne did rather well.

here’s our take on her performance on the show http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/so-how-did-leanne-do.html

Max Wallis
Guest

Poor Green Dragon – asked about censorship and shown one Blog comment they’ve censored (39 above), they trot out ‘libellous’ (41), an excuse that obviously does not apply, ie. won’t give their censoring principles and censors a post that asks for them.

Green Dragon’s publishing “anonymous” attacks on Andy Chyba, including one from the fictitious Brig Strawbridge (now disappeared) also require explaining (post 39). My terming the unaccountable censor as the Achilles heel of the sectarian/conspiratorial left seems to have riled Green Dragon’s sensitivities.

I did disclose on this blog (post 31) that Bartolotti and I are up for an internal Green Party Tribunal at the end of November. She wants to expel me for questioning her past business activities, but the mainstream Green Party, unlike the Bartolotti faction, does not assume the conclusion.

green dragon
Guest

the plot thickens – this is getting better than a john le carre novel 🙂 all of us owe you max and your partner in crime annie wilkes….er sorry we mean annie greagsby…. a huge debt of gratitude for all the entertainment you are providing us with on these dark cold winter evenings.

we feared the last great comedy double act ended wth the passing away of the great eric morecambe but with the emergence of max and anne it looks like our fears may have been be unfounded. well okay maybe youre more krankies than eric and ern…..but were sure you get our drift max.

yes the timing of your very public allegations about the walesgreen party are very interesting given the wales green party has never been in better shape, as we report here http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/wales-green-party-conference-2014.html

but as we pointed out on greendragon, when we looked at the issue of the secret british state and nuclear power in wales, there are clearly powerful interests afoot that want to see a weak small impotent wales green party and greatly fear the emergence of a strong growing green party in wales
http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/wales-own-edge-of-darkness.html

now thats the 98th comment so please reply so we get to have the 100th comment and the prize that goes with it 🙂

Anne Greagsby
Guest

You’re still laughing although the sad Wales section of the England and wales green party is so unsuccessful that the AGM couldn’t even be quourate. Now that is funny considering the boasts we have to listen to from a bunch of fantasists. Not even a nomination for General Secretary at the ‘AGM’.

However, wales green party can continue to ignore the constitution! it seems Peter Ashley Clifford Varley is new elections organiser but hes lost as he says we can’t even produce a coherent document on Welsh policy surrounding devolved powers until the Spring maybe …”policy on devolved powers will be presented to a Special General Meeting in the spring (date and location to be decided) by a working group set up to discuss them. The current drafts of policy on devolved powers have been available on the members’ web site since the summer, and will be used as a starting point for discussion. If you believe that they are incoherent, you must go to the members’ web site and say so.
“… we seem to have no particular stance on Welsh recognition within the EU …”
This is discussed in (probably too much) detail in the draft International policy. If you don’t agree with it, you should suggest improvements.

“… we don’t promote Welsh language …”There is a draft Welsh Language policy. If you don’t agree with it, you should suggest improvements.

“… we have no radical policies to promote, support or celebrate Welsh identity …”
The draft Culture, Media and Sport policy is not all it could be, and could do with improvement. Suggestions would be welcome.

“… we have opportunity to call for further devolved powers for the WA …”
We do indeed. What should be top priority?
Oh what the heck…” WGP policies on devolved topics are for the 2016 Assembly Election and don’t affect the 2015 General Election. It would still be nice to get them in place as quickly as possible.” Never mind Bartolotti will continue to make it up as she goes along.

Of course Bartolotti being ignorant wouldn’t have thought that It’s probably better to have enemies inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. Not that I would want to be associated with such an eccentric bunch of earth worshippers, bone shakers, convicted fraudsters and those who are economical with the truth. Now that’s funny.

Max Wallis
Guest

You’ve been very tolerant with my efforts to call to account the greendragon bloggers of a covert Green Party faction (times 31, 39, 47 above). While you’ve uncovered a refusal to disclose any identities, it appears from the speedy, poorly worded non-responses that one person is primarily responsible. In contrast with your own openness and wide acceptance of blog comments, greendragon both excludes similar ones and refuse to explain their censorship practice, including censoring a post that asks for the censoring policy.

It’s unfair of you to term the whole Wales section of the Green Party ‘stalinist’ (post 31); the party belongs to its members and the 200% increase in membership (over the 300 of January) opens the way to transforming it into an open democratic party. Returning to the original subject of your blog, you can certainly conclude they are far from ready and mature enough for an electoral pact with Plaid.

Isn’t it time you told greendragon that your readers have lost patience with the squabbling over their covert Green Party faction – to copy it over to the greendragon blog and pursue there the arguments over censorship and transparency?

green dragon
Guest

We pointed out earlier that – courtesy of ‘the fledgling comedy duo ‘max n anne’ – this thread was entering the realms of a john le carre novel, but in view of anne greagsby’s latest barely comprehensible diatribe against the wales green party we feel bound to say it would now appear to be heading into the realms of CS lewis and Narnia land. But whatever the literary genre her contributions belong in it’s clear they are firmly in the fiction category. Say what you like but it seems people can learn an awful lot from these creative writing courses.

So just for clarification this is the Wales Green Party’s actual position on Wales and the EU
“As Wales moves towards sovereignty, we will seek membership of the European Union and the United Nations”.

And this is the WGP’s actual position on the Welsh language
http://wales.greenparty.org.uk/policy/manifesto-for-a-sustainable-society-in-wales/wel.-the-welsh-language.html

What’s surely ‘funny’ however is the fact that one time Wales green party member and fierce Plaid Cymru critic, Anne Greagsby, is now a plaid cymru member and and a fierce Wales Green Party critic (work that one out)

http://www.freedomcentral.org.uk/2011/03/question-marks-on-plaid-cymru-election-pledge.html (see coment 2)

http://yourcardiff.mediawales-1.titaninternet.co.uk/2012/04/25/election-2012-plaid-cymru-are-community-activists-not-politicians-neil-mcevoy/
(note comment 3)

It’s good to see max wallis aknowledge the significant growth in Wales green party membership this year, but he it should be pointed out this has occured in spite of the public attempts of Max n Anne to publicly undermine the Wales green party at every opportunity. Thankfully it would appear that they have not been successful and the Wales greens look well placed to secure a seat at the Welsh Assembly in 2016, and to lead the opposition to the planned Wylfa b and the possible dumping of high grade radioactive waste in Wales.

http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/wales-own-edge-of-darkness.html

Anne Greagsby
Guest

Green Dragon/Martyn Still trying to have the last word/insult. Neil and I are adults and have made peace! I can admit when I get it wrong. Dream on would be greens.

Anonymous
Guest

What a great comic blog. Political satire at its best, you guys should have your own show.

Leila Kiersch
Guest

Dear sir,

You have entirely overloked a number of progressive green party members in self-selecting bias of your opinion of who makes up Green Party membership. I have been studying Welsh for many years, sent my children to the local village Welsh speaking school, actively encouraged them to be bilingual and am proud both my sons are taking all their exams through Welsh. I am an incredibly strong supporter of local business and think that they should be given priority in the provision of services. Localism is in fact a core aspect of being Green.

I was leader of Wales Green Party for a year and candidate in a number of elections. I may have grown up in England but my grandmother was Welsh and I do not consider myself middle class, just educated. It doesn’t take money to be green – just care on what you buy. When I campaigned against Tesco in Aberystwyth because it would be detrimental to local shops, it was a Plaid member and Plaid councillors attacking me.

I cannot support joining up of Plaid and Greens, not becuase I disagree with many Plaid policies and support for the language and the people striving to make a living here, but because I have found there to be people in it who judge me based on who they think I am due to their perception of my background and income.

Love your country. Love your people. Don’t hate everybody else – they may just love it too….

Judge_D
Guest

I’d be interested to get a better understanding of the growing relationship between Plaid Cymru and UKIP. With members now defecting from PC to UKIP, can anybody comment on the increasing belief of many voters that PC and UKIP are in fact moving towards some sort of nationalist ‘kick-them-all-out’ dream team.

Dave Bradney
Guest

Having only just stumbled across this treasure-trove of egotistical and conspiratorial gunk, I have a few comments:

1. god knows I was never a fan of Chris Busby, back in the days when it seemed to matter what happened in the Green Party, but he was surely correct to object to the conduct of community council busines solely in Welsh.

“Eff off home” indeed (or “Spend your money and eff off” as it tends to be finessed in the more tourism-based communities)!

Formally speaking these are locally-elected public decision-taking bodies in an officially bilingual nation. Less formally, but of considerable practical significance, half the adult population is monoglot-English even in the Welsh-speaking “heartlands”.

This would tend to suggest, Mr o’North, that you are no kind of democrat, but I guess this is covered, in all senses, by your self-description as “right of centre nationalist”. “Left of centre internationalist” would have served the same purpose.

2. Someone here (#40) with a concealed identity said they intended to “publicly support” something, but I have to point out that you cannot lend your “public support” to anything if your identity is concealed.

3. Reading through samples of this gunk, jolly though some of it is, I was reminded of the life and times of Mikhail Bakunin, with his love and/or fear of secret societies. Why do you all need to conceal your identities while discussing what can only be described as public policy? How can you possibly see that as appropriate?

I couldn’t come up with a plausible answer, until I came across this (towards the end of #17):

“By even posing the question of which language my mother-in-law spoke you come across as a very special kind of scumbag. Rest assured that if I am lucky enough to identify you there’ll be a price to pay.”

OK, there are at least two valid reasons for concealing your identity, both ugly.

Max Wallis
Guest

David Bradney sounds like one of the Green Party candidates in the Euro-elections of 2004. If so, he should tell his then fellow candidate Martyn Shrewsbury to end concealing his identity under ‘Green dragon’ – and apologise for accusing you Jac of similar concealment.

Dave Bradney
Guest

Sorry, you can’t drag me into any of that. If you read what I wrote again you will see that I mainly think it is amusing that anyone would want to engage in public debate using a false name or concealed identity. Of course if there was any ill intent it would not be amusing, that would be sinister.

Max Wallis
Guest

Are you saying you’re amused at Martyn Shrewsbury inventing an “independent” blog to promote himself and Bartolotti ? At concocting the Brig Strawbridge facebook page to attack Bartolotti’s opponent under that guise. Do you refuse to remember the damage to the Wales Green Party from Shrewsbury’s run-in with Myron Evans over fraud allegations, then his going bankrupt [http://www.swanseasound.co.uk/news/local/fraud-case] and fraudulently disposing of assets ? Do you now regret being joint election candidate with this fraudster?

Dave Bradney
Guest

… if Jac will permit …

I don’t mind criticism, but it’s best to read what I wrote first. What I said was: ” … it is *amusing” that anyone would want to engage in public debate using a false name or concealed identity”. I stand by that.

I was pretty much out of WGP-level activity by the end of 2004, when I was replaced as WGP treasurer by an acolyte of MS. They didn’t seem to realise what a favour they had done me! I drove down to Sketty with two boxes of paperwork and spent a whole afternoon doing a face-to-face handover, promising to help over the phone if anything proved difficult. The guy spent the next year doing absolutely nothing, as far as I could see, and judging by the complaints I got, and WGP as I understand it had to get rid of him. Plus ca change.

I was Martyn’s favourite punchbag for a while, having been the lead Assembly candidate in 1999, and I formed the impression that he was pathetic, dangerously unreliable, given to unpredictable rages, and at times only loosely connected to reality. But as far as the specific events you mention they were after my time. I can truthfully say that unless I have forgotten I have never heard of Myron Evans. I only found out about the alleged fraud allegations much later.

If I was an EU candidate with MS I don’t think that is anything for me to apologise for – there are no specific procedures for potential candidates to vet other candidates before deciding whether to stand, and if there were then the GP would probably have no candidates at all!

I probably won’t post on this site again (while reserving the “right” to reply to anything fresh that is said about me), This is Jac’s site and he has said that he doesn’t want me on it, which is fair enough and no great hardship. I would have liked to talk to Jac more – I found his pictures of the FWA days very moving (although exclusively male) – but you can see what he’s like, there’s no point in arguing.

Max Wallis
Guest

That’s helpful, David, disclosing your insider knowledge/opinion of the Wales Green Party’s former leader, as MS is trying a come-back within the new generation of largely incomers. Your former colleague, Chris Simpson, competently took over your old treasurer job till 2013 and scored relatively well in the last Assembly election, Ceredigion seat. The welcome back given by the Party to MS, including by remnant of the old guard, Ann Were, current ‘regional party chair’, hardly befits an organisation seeking Welsh political party status and alliance in any way with Plaid.

Dave Bradney
Guest

Wasn’t particularly trying to be helpful Max, just telling it as I saw it. I kept my end up in disputes with Martyn, but it was hard and unrewarding work.

Now I’ll try to be helpful. At the end of our push to the 1999 (first Assembly) elections, my strong recommendations to WGP for the next stage were:

1. Stop focusing on Mid and West, even though it is the region with most support at the moment, because there is zero all-Wales media coverage, even less than in N Wales. Prioritise the capital, where access to the media is greatest, as the Scottish Greens did with Edinburgh.

2. Get free of the English Greens, whatever you do, because they are never going to understand our situation in Wales and we are always going to be seen by them as a pawn that can be sacrificed in other games.

Neither piece of advice was taken. The focus shifted to Swansea, because that was what MS wanted. A motion to go independent like the Scottish Greens had done was voted down at WGP conference. The Valleys Boys didn’t approve, dunno why.

If there is any comeback from MS or anything that sounds like him I will probably not respond, but don’t take that for agreement or acquiescence!

Dave Bradney
Guest

OK, I’m going to assume that you didn’t have/take long to construct that reply. “People like you.” You certainly don’t know anything about me, or my opinions or life circumstances. You are just speaking out of your own prejudices and stereotypes. The idea that I have “dictated to other peoples in their own countries” I’m not even going to address, although using my own prejudices I can probably predict what you will say …

Sure it’s irritating for members of a cosy Welsh-speaking community council to be approached by an English-monoglot resident (quite possibly with authentic Welsh roots, unless you don’t consider that the start of the Industrial Revolution goes far enough back) who wants to participate in his/her local democracy. But that’s democracy, it’s irritating, if what passes for democracy at the moment has benefits a lack of irritation is not normally listed amongst them. Elected representatives have a duty, and should welcome the duty, to be inclusive and transparent and accountable. And, dammit, welcoming and cooperative.

Equally it’s irritating for a bank (and please take note that in mentioning bankers I am not expressing a liking for them) to have some member of the WLS come in and say “Your normal customers may all speak English, but I’m here now – so speak Welsh.” But I would support them in that, because it’s perfectly reasonable when you’re not abroad to want to conduct your business in the language in which you are most comfortable.”

That said, it doesn’t particularly bother me what you think about me, but it does bother me that you didn’t address the questions. Maybe you couldn’t actually see that you were being asked questions. Sort of red mist.

1. What should be the relationship, in your view, between English-monoglot residents and their Welsh-monoglot community council? Should they be excluded entirely from this aspect of local democracy on the basis of the languages that they can speak, or should they be offered some second-tier version of it?

2. Why do you and most of the respondents to this blog need to conceal your identities? Do you just like the feeling of being sinister and clandestine and having secret information?

Take it seriously this time?

wpDiscuz