Nov 102014
 

As I informed you in MBrig Oubridge 1ay, I have broken with the habit of a lifetime and stopped voting for Plaid Cymru, a party I ceased to believe in decades ago. One of the reasons for my losing faith in Plaid Cymru was its infatuation with the Green Party, and its desire to cover Wales with wind turbines (a position from which it has now retreated). So, as you might guess, among the parties I shall definitely not be voting for in future is the Green Party of Englandandwales. I’m dealing with this subject now because there is talk of another electoral pact between Plaid Cymru and the Greens.

Plaid began to get seriously enamoured of the Earth-botherers back in the late 1980s, which was almost certainly connected with the fact that at the June 1989 European elections the Green Party (formerly known as the Ecology Party) gained 99,546 votes in Wales, 11.1% of the total votes cast, and a massive increase of 10.9% on the party’s performance in 1984. In fact, the Green’s total vote was not far behind Plaid Cymru’s 115,062. Someone in Plaid Cymru who could do big sums calculated that if the two numbers were combined then the result would be, well . . . a big number. That’s my take on it, but Cynog Dafis would have us beleve that the links between Plaid Cymru and the environmental lobby go back further, as he explains in Plaid Cymru and the Greens: Flash in the Pan or a Lesson for the Future? which I advise you to read, as I shall refer to it later, and also because I get a mention! (Did I really say that!)

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The first test of this love-in came at the 1991 Monmouth by-election following the death of Sir John Stradling Thomas when Mel Witherden stood as a Plaid / Green candidate. He came fifth, with 277 votes, behind the Monster Raving Loony Party. Admittedly, Monmouth is not ferile ground for Plaid, but the Plaid candidate at the 1987 General Election got 363 votes. (There was no Green candidate in 1987.) In the 1992 general election Witherden stood again, this time winning 431 votes, an improvement of sorts. Though the real significance of Monmouth was what the candidate said some time later. In essence, Witherden confessed that many Greens refused to vote for a joint candidate because, quite frankly, they were anti-Welsh, and displayed crude, colonialist attitudes. Which was no more than many nationalists suspected, and for which some of us had clear evidence. Damning proof of Green attitudes from a Green Party member.

The sort of attitudes Cynog Dafis was to learn about the hard way. In the paper linked to above he talks of meeting leading Greens from Arfon and Meirion, John Nicholson and Chris Busby, who were outraged that community councils in Gwynedd conducted their business in Welsh (which presumaChrisBusbybly prevented them from taking over the meetings), and that their kids were being taught Welsh in schools. Dafis says, “I tried to respond, rather lamely, and through rational defence rather than counter-attack, but I came from the meeting feeling quite shaken”. Rarely does one come across a passage from a leading Plaidista that so perfectly sums up Plaid Cymru’s fundamental weakness when confronted with naked racism and colonialism. In such circumstances “rational defence” will get you nowhere. When faced with colonialist bigotry like that the only response must be: ‘You don’t like Wales the way it is? – then fuck off home!’

(Following the Fukishima nuclear accident in 2011 Busby sought to capitalise by selling his anti-radiation pills online and suggested that the Japanese government was deliberately spreading cancer throughout the country in order to hide or disguise the ‘clusters’! He has a number of companies selling £25 reports, his self-published books and assorted medicinal products that experts believe do nothing except enrich Chris Busby.)

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Despite this insight into the Green colonialist mindset Cynog Dafis stood at the 1992 General Election on a Green-Plaid ticket in Ceredigion and Pembroke North. He gained the seat from the sitting Liberal Democrat MP Geraint Howells with a majority of 3,193. To a number of nationalists at the time, myself included, Howells was a good old stick, a Welshman of the old school, and preferable to Dafis, especially if the latter was going to dance to some hippy tune for the duration of the parliament. Though there remains some dispute as to whether Dafis was ever a joint Plaid-Green candidate, certainly, the official record lists him for posterity as a Plaid Cymru candidate, and some grouplets within the Green Party insist he was never formally adopted. Whatever the truth of his position, Plaid’s leadership, Dafis to the fore, had convinced itself that the party needed Green votes to win Ceredigion, and perhaps other seats.

So were the Green votes influential, even decisive? Well, let’s look at the neighbouring constituencies where no deal was struck to see if they can point us towards an answer. To the south, in the Pembroke constituency, the Green candidate got 484 votes, or 0.8% of the vote. To the east, in Brecon & Radnor, the Green candidate limped in last with 393 votes, or 0.9% of the vote. Moving north, into Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, there the Greens – in the form of Busby’s mate, Bill Pritchard – were ecstatic over their 471 votes and 1.8%.  Though in Carmarthen the Greens couldn’t even find a candidate. The flash-in-the-pan nature of the Green Party’s 1989 Euro election result was betrayed at the first ‘serious’ election, which also told us that Plaid Cymru would have comfortably won Ceredigion and Pembroke North without any pact or agreement with the Greens.

After which it was all downhill, and to cut a long story short . . . in July 1995 the inevitable, yet amicable, parting of the ways came, and here’s an extract from the statement announcing the divorce, taken from Dafis’ document: “‘a bridge was built between the indigenous people of Wales and those who had moved here to live’ for progressive and enlightened purposes”. (I bet you want to read that again!) So condemning Welsh community councillors for speaking their own language is progressive and enlightened! Now if I’d made up that statement in an attempt at ridicule or sarcasm I would be rightly criticised, but a Plaid Cymru luminary who bent over backwards to accommodate a bunch of arrogant, dictatorial and often racist immigrants can write such bollocks without any sense of irony. But that’s all in the past, and I’m not a man to bear a grudge (yes, that is sarcasm) so what of today’s saviours of the planet?

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One worth noting, for the wrong reasons – though I assure you I have no evidence that he sells pills of any description – is that five-letters-a-day (to the editor) man, John Childs, who has opinions on just about everything. I mention him because he has imposed himself on the Treboeth neighbourhood in Swansea, an area close to my heart, and indeed close to where I was raised. I recall my father telling me that, pre-war, once you’d left Brynhyfryd Square and started walking up Llangyfelach Road into Treboeth you automatically switched from English to Welsh. Treboeth was the home patch of Daniel James (‘Gwyrosydd’) writer of Calon Lân. Also where Dewi ‘Pws’ Morris has his roots, and I understand Cynog Dafis himself was born there. Nowadays the name Treboeth is seen in newspapers and other publications on a daily basis when people read the opinionated and offensive drivel of an English environmentalist.

Another who feels Swansea cannot do without him is young Ashley Wakeling (or Ŵakeling?), who is contesting the upcoming by-election in the Uplands ward. ‘So who is he?’ I hear you ask. Young Mr Wakeling is a student, and last year he was the Green candidate back home in Maidstone. Here we have a young Green who knows nothing about the city he’s just moved to, but clearly believes that such ignorance is no obstacle to him standing for election to the body running that city. It’s incredible. I sincerely believe that no one should be allowed to stand for election tMatt Cookeo any local authority until they have lived in the area for a minimum of five years. Why should we demand that taxi drivers have more local knowledge than those getting paid to run a city? Another candidate recently announced was Matt Cooke in Torfaen.

Then we have the much more mature – at 27 – Chris Were, alleged to be deputy leader of the Wales Green Party’, though how one can hold any position in an organisation that doesn’t exist is beyond my ken. Were may be 27 but he prefers to behave like a 12-year-old, as his mocking of Wales testifies. (And the silly boy can’t even spell ‘innit’!) Were was a Green candidate in this year’s memorable European elections, in which the Greens achieved 33,275 votes, or 4.5% of the total, proving yet gain what a blip that 1989 result was that set Plaid Cymru hearts all a-flutter. Ah! those European elections of May 2014, memorable because I sincerely believe that the Ukip MEP elected, a Mr Nathan LeeChristopher Were Gill, will provide hours of enjoyment in the years ahead for those of you in possession of the gift of schadenfreude. (A gift that I, alas, have been denied.)

Finally, and much closer to home, I had a run-in not so long ago with an environmentalist living just up the road. It all started with a couple of letters to the local weekly rag on the subject of raising council tax on holiday homes; one headed, ‘Second home owners keep Gwynedd economy alive’, the other arguing that it would be ‘racist’ to increase council tax, before introducng the spectre of arson. Naturally, I responded, then the following week there was a reply that concluded with a reference to “the burning of second homes by Nationalist extremists”. The two letters mentioning arson are almost certainly phoney, and the second cleverly distorts what I actually said. The exchange can be found here.

The debate rumbled on a bit, and provoked a letter from Andrew Currie, the environmentalist who lives just up the road from me. According to Currie, I had missed the point that, “coastal towns and villages came into being because of tourism in Victorian times”. In other words, there was really nothing here until English tourists ‘discovered’ Wales. This is a reminder that the most virulent and outspoken bigotry doesn’t always come from the usual suspects, because what Currie is exposing here is the traditional ‘justification’ for colonialism – ‘They couldn’t manage without us’. The full exchange can be found in this post.

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I can only assume that whoever is gently blowing on the embers of an extinguished love is prompted not by renewed passion but by the very pragmatic consideration that with Assembly elections due in 2016, and Plaid defending a majority of just 1,777 in Ceredigion, the 1,514 votes won by Chris Simpson, the Green candidate in 2011, could be critical for Plaid’s chances of retaining the seat. It might also be worth pointing out that while this figure of 1,514 might look impressive, it should be borne in mind that Simpson was the only constituency candidate the Greens fielded in 2011, so the party concentrated almost all its resources on Ceredigion. A more meaningful assessment of Green support would be that in the (second preference) regional list section they got just 32,649 across the whole of Wales, roughly ten thousand votes ahead of the Socialist Labour Party and the BNP.

This is a party that can deliver, at most, thirty to forty thousand votes across the whole country – and that’s if all Greens are prepared to vote for joint candidates, which of course they aren’t. And not only will joint Green-Plaid candidates alienate most Green supporters, they’ll also piss off quite a few Plaid voters – and there are many more of the latter. A further consideration could be explained as follows. The Greens are an English party attracting English votes, therefore, as few of these votes will transfer to a joint candidate in the event of a pact, it makes more sense to have a Green candidate in Ceredigion, grabbing a thousand or two votes, rather than see those English Green votes transfer to a party that could beat Plaid Cymru.

Crude, electoral considerations aside, the bigger question has to be, why would Plaid Cymru – or any self-respecting party, come to that – want an electoral pact with the Green Party of Englandandwales? A party that refuses to recognise Wales as a country. A party that has members and activists who are positively racist in their attitudes to anything Welsh. A party whose luminaries see Wales as a backward territory ripe for ‘improvement’ by superior beings like them, with we Welsh viewed – at best – as obstructive primitives to be shouted down and brushed aside. Whichever way we look at it, a pact with the Greens could be very damaging to Plaid Cymru, and should call into question the political nous or motives of anyone promoting such a deal.

  126 Responses to “Plaid Cymru and the Green Party of Englandandwales”

  1.  

    Well argued as usual Jac. Added to this is the nonsense of Plaid’s anti-nuclear power policy. This means that in Ynys Mon, supposedly one of their heartlands, they are campaigning to close down the island’s largest employer. Crazy.

    •  

      Living in Ynys Mon I can assure you that that comment is total bollocks. Plaid’s position is very clear – nuclear is UK strategic and neither the Ynys Mon Council nor the Welsh Government has any say or power over the existing plant, the new one, or anything that the new one needs to be built. In fact UK Strategic means not even Parliament in Westminster has any say in the matter – all decisions are made at Cabinet level. Any consultations at any level are purely ‘advisory’.

      Plaid’s position is if the people of Wales want control over these things then the only way to gain it is by gaining independence first. Without that, even if every person in Wales was against Wylfa Newydd it would matter not one jot – because it simply has nothing to do with them.

      You of course new this because it is widely publicised – which begs the question then as to why you are attempting to be a rather shoddy Agent Provocateur.

  2.  

    Perhaps late 80’s early 90’s was a time for forming “joint ventures” of the political kind. I rated Cynog as one of the better Plaid politicians although he seemed ill at ease with aspects of politics, like processes, formalities etc, and of course an early player in Cymdeithas yr Iaith. Even if he got sucked in by the superficial “rightness” of the Green Gospel at that time he should have been alerted by some of those in the Plaid team that these people weren’t quite as straight and well meaning as claimed. Green ideas are often fine in theory but when applied to idigenous activity such as farming, energy, extractive industry they soon become a kind of dictatorial (Fascist ? ) hysteria where only their way is right and all else is heresy. Some of them even compete with each other to be most “far out” on issues.

    No doubt this note will provoke some robust defence but not likely to change my mind that mosy of these “evangelists” need to create their own version of green and pleasant land elsewhere and leave ours to natives and migrants who wish to integrate, Now that’s a word, integrate, you don’t hear much when these imports start to preach.

  3.  

    direct quote taken from the wales green party’s policy statements

    “As Wales moves towards sovereignty, we will seek membership of the European Union and the United Nations. Within these institutions, we will promote our vision of a sustainable world. We will campaign for reform of the United Nations such that UN membership is available to nations (including Wales) which are not, as yet, sovereign.”

    realise it does not play into your narrative jac but this quote would seem to illustrate that the wales green party certainly does see wales as a country in its own right. but of course while the wales green party does elect its own officers and makes its own policies its also a fact that it currently remains a ‘autonomous’ section of the green party in england and wales and clearly has some way to go before it will achieve the level of organisational independence of its sister party in scotland, but trust us jac there are discussions about moving along such lines in the not too distant future already taking place among wales green party members..

    afraid gareth is hopelessly out of step with plaid’s position on nuclear power – and the proposed wylfa b – as far from having a ‘anti nuclear policy’ local plaid assembly members are right behind the plans for a new nuclear plant at wylfa, and we point this out out in our latest blog post

    http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/wales-own-edge-of-darkness.html

    you and gareth might find that particular post of interest jac as you’ll both see that wales has no say over whether or not nuclear power stations are built n our country and that its our ‘colonial’ rulers in westminister who are imposing nuclear power on wales – a state of affairs which you surely cant be happy with?.

    •  

      Where does the quote come from? Who said it? What authority did they have to say it? Do they speak for all Greens?

      The quote you use may reprsent the current position of a small number of people within the ‘Green Party of Wales’ which, as you admit, is nothing but a semi-autonomous group within the Green Party of England and Wales. And haven’t we been here before, for while Cynog Dafis was doing deals with the ‘nice’ ones in the Green Party 20-odd years ago, there were others rejecting the pact in very strong and abusive terms? The Green Party is a very fractious outfit.

      Having mentioned Scotland, it’s only fair to point out that the reason the Scottish Greens are different is because they are unconnected with the English Greens, and that’s because most members of the Scottish Greens are Scots. No matter how well you try to dress it up, the truth is that most Greens in Wales are English, and to get them to support independence is pie in the sky. I often suspect that there may even be two Green parties in Wales, one with a Welsh agenda and the other, larger one, sticking with the Green Party of England and Wales.

      Plaid’s position on nuclear power is confusing, and that’s being generous. To try to defend this by arguing that Wales has no power over nuclear power stations is a red herring. Having no power over issues never stopped Plaid Cymru from making pronouncements on Palestine, the EU, Cuba, defence matters, currency issues, etc., etc.

  4.  

    The early responses to Jac’s comment illustrate something that I always keep in mind. Plaid is criticised for being too green and for not being green enough. On nuclear power it is either standing up for jobs or selling out its principles, or both at the same time.

    Alot of people who share left-leaning views don’t comment on this blog, which is a shame, because it is always a good discussion. Suffice to say Jac you’d have to recognise alot of people agreed with Cynog and still do. He doesn’t have a blog sticking up for him, but he has always been consistent about trying to appeal beyond just the Welsh. It is a very different political approach to yours.

    I thought you had a point when commenting on green results elsewhere in Wales and how they didn’t make a difference but Ceredigion is their strongest area, and an area with above average residents who’ve come from England. Some of the Plaid councillors in Ceredigion come from England. As for Geraint Howells, it is interesting that you preferred him, as a liberal. Purely on cultural grounds?

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      I’m sure many people do agree with Cynog Dafis on green and other issues, but where I fundamentally disgree with Plaid Cymru is in its failure to honestly approach the issue of English immigration.

      In the 1980s, when the population shift had become obvious for all to see Plaid could have come up with a strategy for dealing with it in a fair and reasonable manner, by pointing out the effects it was having and demanding curbs. But instead, Plaid adopted the ‘open arms’ approach pretending that these people moving in could be assimilated, become Plaid voters. Which of course is absolute nonsense, and means that Plaid was either guilty of cowardice, or of self-delusion on a massive, ethnocidal scale.

      To appeal to this new population Plaid obviously had to backtrack on its nationalism – no more ‘Free Wales’ – which was bound to mean that it had less to offer its Welsh supporters, who were increasingly taken for granted as their communities ceased to be Welsh speaking and their children could no longer afford to live in the communities in which they’d been born. This was betrayal on a massive scale, that Plaid Cymru only got away with – and still gets away with – because there is no alternative Welsh party for those thus abandoned to vote for.

      Seeing as Plaid Cymru gets so few English votes what was the point of it all? As Plaid’s support in the west and the north diminishes, and the ‘breakthrough in the south’ is as far away as ever, Plaid Cymru is condemned to a slow, lingering death. I don’t give a fuck about Plaid Cymru, it could disappear tomorrow for all I care (in fact, I wish it would), but I do care that my nation is passing into history because of Plaid Cymru’s betrayal.

  5.  

    the quote i give jac is taken from the wales green party’s manifesto for wales, a lengthy document which obviously couldnt be posted here, but which i will email to you so that you may see the relevant piece for yourself. i wont try to pretend that some of the observations you make with regards to competing ‘outlooks’ on wales among wales green party members dont have an element of truth in them, nevertheless the wales green party is’evolving and can only go on to enjoy greater autonomy in the future. many thanks for publishing my original comment. regards gd

  6.  

    If left leaning people refuse to comment on this blog then more fool them. You only test and strengthen your ideas through debate with those outside the comfort zone. No wonder that Wales is one of the few societies in Western Europe that is not seeing a radical revitalization of anti-establishment ideas.

    •  

      There’s certainly no bar on left-leaning comments to this blog. But one problem is that a lot of intellectual Lefties, or self-imagined intellectual Lefties, tend to be curiously sniffy, looking down their noses at a blog like mine. Often because they have withdrawn from the world like some closed order, now they preach socialism but do so while detesting hoi polloi, those ignorant bastards who read the Sun, watch ‘reality’ television, and vote Ukip.

      This, as you suggest, is why Wales is bereft of indigenous anti-establishment ideas.

  7.  

    It is somehow appropriate that the national party for the world’s first industrial nation seems besotted by a minor sect of incomers determined to run down such little industry as remains and return us to some long-lost paradise which in reality would be grinding poverty and a return to serfdom. Do they realise that some of us cannot take them seriously in consequence. How can economic recovery be reconciled with a doctrine that renounces growth, especially in a region that is poor already? It is total insanity.

    You are quite right about bores and self-styled experts such as Childs. Interestingly, when someone occasionally writes in reply to point out that he is spouting rubbish, his self-righteous wrath is instantaneous- how dare anyone dissent.

    The SNP, although left wing realised the importance of business support. Plaid’s pro-green bias means that they seem either irrelevant or actively hostile.

    •  

      The Greens’ anti-development, organic everything, attitudes are particularly damaging in a poor country like Wales, but Wales is attractive because many of them believe that, by courting politicians and others, they can have their absurd ideas implemented. And it goes without saying, they don’t give a toss how damaging those ideas are to the interests of Welsh people.

  8.  

    I can only agree with every thing you’ve written regarding the Plaid Cymru Green party alliance of the 1980-90s,a stupide idea thought up by some of the most incompetent political leadership Plaid Cymru have ever had. However, the past is the past and needs to be left there. The only hope for Wales surviving into the next century as a distinct national entity, is for those of us who are like minded regarding what needs to be done and are prepared to come out and do it,to band together in a new organisation that can begin the process of re-educating the people of Wales into believing in their abilities as a united people to bring hope and prosperity for their children in future years. We must act very quickly before the next wave of English immigrants cross the boarder and end all hope of our national survival, In the past 25 years 600,000, immigrants have flooded into Wales from England, if in the next 25 years the same number of immigrants enter Wales, then the Welsh nation will not survive into the next century.
    (Who among you is prepared to help?) if none, then will the last Welsh man standing please out the light lock the door and leave the key under the door mat, there’s an Englishman waiting to take tenancy.

    •  

      The reason I wrote the piece is because Plaid is considering another pact with the Greens. You’re right about ‘something must be done’, I keep saying it myself, but I’m still not sure of the best way to proceed.

      •  

        At the Hay Festival this year Juan Jose Ibarretxe, Basque President , spoke about ” How to change a country” ( the Mondragon movement) Just a suggestion as to one way to proceed .—Google ” Mondragon”

        •  

          Yes, I’m aware of Mondragon, and I also remember what happened some 20+ years ago when ‘Welsh’ Labour got the hots for co-operatives and went to study the Mondragon example. They came back shocked, having realised that Mondragon was sustained by Basque nationalism not Statist, Unionists, wish-washy, somewhere-vaguely-left-of-centre politics. After which the enthusiasm for co–operatives seemed to disappear.

    •  

      “n the past 25 years 600,000, immigrants have flooded into Wales from England, if in the next 25 years the same number of immigrants enter Wales, then the Welsh nation will not survive into the next century.”

      This is the only issue that matters in Welsh politics. The existence of the Welsh nation. We are constantly reminded by the wave of ‘Anglicisation’ that swamped the old industrial South… Yet between 1861 and 1911 only 227,000 English moved to southern Wales. Today we are facing a tsunami of Anglicisation!

      The only solution is to keep young Welsh people in Wales and make sure that they raise large families here. It goes beyond party politics. We will keep Wales Welsh!

  9.  

    good question to ask of the greens before teaming up with them, if that is such a major priority, is – since we last bunked up together, how many of your members have arrived in Wales from England or elsewhere ? and of that number how many of you are in the process of learning Welsh or have completed the process of learning Welsh ? Now for a party that is able to quote detailed numbers on almost anything down to the carbon content of different bits of wood, those numbers should be easily retrieved. My money is on the Greens never having considered protection and proliferation of the native language to be a priority issue on ethical, environmental, social or political grounds.

  10.  

    I am an environmentalist but vote Plaid instead of Green. I was once at Kingsnorth power station during the Climate Camp protest in 2008. There was a Green there from Pembrokeshire. She was telling me how she’d spent years in the Amazon learning indigenous languages and how it would be terrible if these languages were lost. I asked her if she had made any effort to learn Welsh. The answer was no.

  11.  

    dafis you wil have lost your money im afraid – the wales greens are strongly committed to both preserving and boosting welsh. more on the wales green party’s welsh language policiy can be found on the link below if you – and others – are truly interested in what welsh greens have to say about such things.

    tho it is of course much easier for some people to believe the ignorant stereotypes about the wales greens eg they are all middle class english people or have no interest in the culture of wales than it is to recognise that the welsh green party is a part of the political fabric of wales and that its a party that is not going away and which will continue to grow……and yes it would be nice to think it will one day reach the prominence in wales as that of its sister party in scotland.

    http://wales.greenparty.org.uk/policy/manifesto-for-a-sustainable-society-in-wales/wel.-the-welsh-language.html

    •  

      Hang on, I don’t think it is an “ignorant sterotype” to believe that most Greens in Wales are English and middle class. This is what we read about, this is what we see on television. I live not far from the Centre for Alternative Technology where there has been little or no Welsh involvement – certainly in terms of employment. CAT seems to be here for no better reason than the generous public funding, making those running CAT gimmegrants. But I’m not just thinking of the Green Party but the wider environmental lobby. How many Welsh were involved in ‘Tipi Valley’? How many Welsh live in the ‘eco village’ given retrospective planning permission in the Pembrokeshire National Park?

      But I’m ready to be corrected. So tell us what percentage of Green Partyy members in Wales are Welsh by birth, with roots in this country? How many of the Green Party’s candidates in Wales will meet this qualification? Your ‘Welsh’ leader, Pippa Bartolotti, what’s her background?

      It’s all very well directing us to a page on the Green Party webside listing a few pious and distractionary hopes, but until the ‘Welsh’ Green Party is more recognisably Welsh in its composition no one’s going to believe statements like that. Especially when there is a lot of counter-evidence proving the arrogance and hostility of many greens to almost anything distinctively Welsh. Read John Nicholson’s contributions to blog posts on the Welsh language, he’s almost as eaten up with blind hatred as Jacques Protic and a few other obsessives.

      •  

        well said. a more articulate presentation of what I was trying to get across earlier. Policy. policy policy yet no actions to confirm commitment. Greens no better than Labour they must have people who can churn out bullshit ( low methane contaent of course ! ) by the ton, yet no one on the ground actually doing the business.

    •  

      You say “dafis you wil have lost your money im afraid – more on the wales green party’s welsh language policiy can be found on the link below if you – and others – are truly interested in what welsh greens have to say about such things” . I think I will hang onto my loot until bits of policy easily pasted onto a page are converted into reality. All the Anglo parties have high faluting policy statements which are about as insincere as you can find anywhere.

      I accept your assertion that it ( the Green Party ) will not go away, but I would remain of the view that its stance on our identity remains more akin to the centralist Labour than you may care to admit.

  12.  

    Jac, I agree with you. I’m a lefty, and I say to tell those middle class “right-on” greens to BYTA FY BAW TRWYN! And get out of Wales, too.

  13.  

    jac asks ” So tell us what percentage of Green Partyy members in Wales are Welsh by birth, with roots in this country? How many of the Green Party’s candidates in Wales will meet this qualification? ” no idea jac and frankly dont know of any political party in wales that collects statistics on members birth places with the odious exception perhaps of any fascist groups that might have a presence in wales eg britian first

    while neither john nicholson or chris busby are members of the wales green party

    •  

      OK, look, we could go on like this for ever, but here’s my last word. I’ll accept what you say about the Wales Green Party when it – like the Scottish Greens – is entirely separate to the Green Party of England and Wales. For there is an obvious and irreconcilable contradiction, and a serious credibility issue, in having one party claiming to cover England and Wales and another claiming it represents Wales and is somehow separate. You Greens need to resolve this before you can present yourselves to Welsh electors as a party committed to Wales and not just a local branch office of an essentially English party.

  14.  

    fair point jac – i guess you could say the wales green party is a work in progress

  15.  

    Green Dragon, I see that your party is committed to sustainable local economies, but at the moment this is just words in a policy document. So I’m going to make a suggestion that would a) prove your sincerity and b) increase your appeal to voters.

    An issue I have dealt with a number of times on this blog is that of Welsh local authorities and other bodies agreeing contracts with large English or UK companies who then employ sub-contractors from over the border. The results are: contracts lost to local firms, jobs lost locally, money taken out of the local economy, and hundreds of thousands of miles of avoidable road travel. Use this link and scroll down to the section Cartrefi Cymunedol Gwynedd & Lovell to get more details. http://jacothenorth.net/blog/the-impoverishment-of-wales/

    Now if your Green Party (whichever one that might be) is serious about sustainable local economies then it will start campaigning for contracts to be given to local firms employing local workers, and local procurement all round. Which of course will cut down dramatically on traffic and miles travelled. Do that and it might convince me – and many others – that your committment to sustainable local economies extends beyond a few words on a page.

    Equally, if you are serious about what you preach, then you will oppose housing developments such as Bodelwyddan. For this will destroy an existing community by building a few thousand homes for commuters to Manchester and Merseyside – how many travel miles will that add up to in a day?

    If your policy document on the Welsh language is to be believed then you are bound to engage in such campaigns. Indeed, this approach should not be restricted to areas where the language is a consideration, it should be a national strategy. http://wales.greenparty.org.uk/policy/manifesto-for-a-sustainable-society-in-wales/wel.-the-welsh-language.html

    You Greens have a golden opportunity to be true to your own beliefs and in so doing serve the interests of Welsh communities. Do it right, with a distinctively Welsh party, and in these times of political change and uncertainty, there might be a lot of votes for you out there.

  16.  

    Anthony Slaughter @as_penarth is ‘Deputy Leader’ of Wales Green Party at the present is English PotPippa is English who got 27 unopposed in ‘leadership’ election. This time she faces contender Andy Chyba also English as are many of the candidates Green Dragon I believe is Martyn Shrewsbury convicted fraudster charlatan hypnotherapist and is currently agent for green party English Ashley Wakeling Uplands Swansea council by election. He is promoting Pippa for leader the jag driving woman made her money working in the security industry/Thales/AWRE and when asked about policy regarding the Welsh language? Especially in regards to business, education, and government
    She replied “As much as we love to see regional cultures live and in action, the Green Party concentrates on the bigger issues facing humanity – such as climate change and the corporatisation of democracy. These are things we really must get right if we are to leave the next generation with an environment fit for the future, and a democracy which works for everyone.” Not sure what Pippa who describes herself as a ‘victim of the comprehensive system of non education’ policy is on education in Wales. She concentrates her ramblings on legalising cannabis/fracking.

    •  

      Ah, yes, I remember that remark about regional cultures, had forgotten who said it. And ‘Green Dragon’ you think is Martyn Shrewsbury? Well, well.

    •  

      Anne I have to disagree in my experience Pippa only talks about fracking when there’s a camera pointed at her. She’s not interested in any of the grass roots work. I’ve done my research, there are too many PR disasters the worst in my opinion were the Tel Aviv airport fiasco and the immigration speech. They are an embarrassment. The latter could easily be taken out of context and made into a parody drum and bass tune for instance, as a music producer I know how easy this is!! If allowed to continue she could be a disaster for the party at UK level in the run up to the election.

  17.  

    Cynog’s viewpoint was valid though. I cannot ever see an independent Wales having border controls with the UK. Or Ireland having border controls with the UK although I accept at airports it is different. Calling for curbs on movement makes no sense and is not viable or desirable economically or politically. It would also not be possible in Plaid Cymru’s case as at least some the party, are actually English.

    I also disagree with the criticism of CAT. It is not a problem that they have come from England. They contribute to Wales.

    I don’t see Wales disappearing. In some ways it is now more established than it has been earlier in my lifetime. Change is constant and must be adapted to and dealt with. With regards to the Welsh language we face a massive challenge, but we do have a higher percentage of Welsh speakers than we did in 1991. What looked like an utter freefall in the 60s-80s has been slowed down.

    •  

      How and what does CAT “contribute to Wales”. It is almost totally detached from the world around it (in more senses than one).

      Wales may be “more established” than ever before but only as an adminstrative and constitutional unit. You have to address the paradox of this unit seeking more powers for a population that is increasingly less different to the people of the country from which greater distance is demanded.

      The truth is that Wales was “more established” as a nation 200 years ago without any form of devolution. This is all about the superficiality of devolution against the reality of a country being rapidly Englished.

      The same applies to the language, too many ‘speakers’ are people who’ve been through a Welsh or bilingual education system but rarely use the language, may not really be able to speak it. Again, unlike 200 years ago, or even 50 years ago. Making the “freefall in the 60s-80s” a truer reflection of the state of the language.

      •  

        I don’t think CAT is the primary issue and it was an off hand comment by me, but I find this stuff beneficial to us compared to the less-than-stellar track record of other forms of energy in Wales.

        I’ll take your word about 200 years ago but there’s another problem i’ve encountered with other nationalists. Fighting battles that nobody cares about anymore. What are we going to do with the Wales we have today, in a context where people expect to move freely?

        I don’t have all the answers, but I don’t think Wales is dying, and I don’t think we will ever have or want border controls. People even get pissed off about the severn bridge tolls…let alone checkpoint Chepstow or Chester… Likewise Catalonia will not have border controls with Spain and Scotland will not have border controls with rUK; even though I firmly believe both those nations will be independent in Europe.

        •  

          Can you direct me to any mention I’ve made of “border controls”.

          •  

            I wasn’t saying you had. But I thought its the only way to govern who enters and leaves the country from England.

            •  

              Wales doesn’t need border controls, it simply needs legislation in housing and other fields that serves the needs of the indigenous population rather than the greed of ‘developers’ and the sinister plans of civil servants. More than anything else, what Wales needs is a national programme of education and vocational training to ensure that there are enough Welsh people to do all the jobs needed. To avoid the kind of lunacy I see around me every day.

              Example: all the ambulance drivers and paramedics in the area where I live seem to have been recruited over the border. I recall an incident in which my late mother-in-law was being taken into an ambulance (an ambulance festooned with bilingual signs), neither member of the ambulance crew spoke Welsh, which meant that my wife and her sister had to act as interpreters. The Welsh Ambulance Service would probably defend itself by saying that there are no locals with the right skills, and there is no training available locally, perhaps no funding for training.

              This situation is replicated in countless other fields of business and public service. It’s probably cheaper to recruit staff who’ve been trained than it is to train Welsh staff, Which means that ‘Wales’ is creating job opportunities in England through denying its own people work? That is colonialism in practice!

              •  

                yet training is one of those spend areas that the Assembly has crowed about for years. Grim reality is that it has enriched loads of dubious training service providers ( many from other side of Clawdd Offa, specialists you see ) and generated little by way of measurable outcomes in terms of useful transferable skills. You could get me going here, loads of anecdotal ” evidence” but the real proof is hidden away because its disclosure would be yet another scandal

              •  

                With regards to your late mother-in-law, are we to understand that she was unable to understand English?

                You may wish to note that the only language to be used in medical matters, in the UK including patient reports and notes etc. is English. This, of course, ensures that there is no confusion, as much may be lost in translation.

                As Ambulance paramedic training becomes more technical, are you actuallly propsing that training be carried out in Welsh?

                •  

                  My late mother-in-law was a) deaf, b) confused, and found it much easier to communicate in her first language, Welsh. It wouldn’t matter whether medical records were kept in Latin, a patient being able to express himself / herself, and a doctor being able to understand the problem being described, is fundamental to effective medical care. That’s why, in areas of high immigration in England, interpreters are used on a daily basis.

                  By even posing the question of which language my mother-in-law spoke you come across as a very special kind of scumbag. Rest assured that if I am lucky enough to identify you there’ll be a price to pay.

      •  

        CAT had the potential to make a major contribution to the Welsh economy and the general vision for a better future, but for a variety of reasons it has not attained that potential. It has tended to run with a fairly specialised outlook/mission when there is no doubt that a more imaginative approach could have made it more central to the developing interest in applications of technology to improve lives and mitigate some of the other issues relating to climate change/pollution etc. Did it fail to inspire sufficient interest among Wales’native youth ? Probably. That in turn leads to a kind of insular, think tank mindset which adds yet more distance between the body and its host region.

        CAT remains an idea which might be reenergised as its capacity for innovation and thought leadership remains of value. Unlike that other body that is rapidly distancing itself from its host region , the bubble in the Bay which really struggles to see beyond the city limits of Cardiff and does little or no good to the rest of Wales.

        You make an interesting point about the language. I was raised in Welsh, and like almost all kids in 50’s and 60’s was educated in English. This has stayed with me as I speak ( and think ! ) in Welsh but my written Welsh is poor. A problem compounded by a work experience of over 40 years during which I dealt with no more than 10 welsh speakers in decision making roles, despite working 90% of that period to the west of clawdd offa. Where did all those products of Welsh schools go to ? I certainly never saw them in foundries or aluminium mills, or even running fleets of lorries. Prejudice drives me to conclude that many Welsh speakers ducked into the respectable professions, public sector & services (and politics), leaving our native welsh community less in touch with real world economics and more attuned to the superficial sound bite of the “new economics” which just involves churning money with no specific purpose other than to make some for the bankers and their advisers. Lots of Welsh speakers now advertise their fluency on websites of major law firms and the like, but is that progress ? The pioneering cutting edge should be Welsh guys and gals setting up independent indigenous businesses, with the people choosing not to take serious risks following behind them, but as ever we have a big cart and no horse to even stick behind it !!

  18.  

    Words words words, more gas than a herd of dairy cows produce. At least you get good milk out of the dairy herd. Remain to see serious commitment & action from the Green mob.

    A Greagsby reports – “the jag driving woman made her money working in the security industry/Thales/AWRE …………”
    say no more , isn’t that a 5star pedigree for agent provocateur material? just shifting her focus from one colonial agenda to another ?.

    and A.G goes on to comment “when asked about policy regarding the Welsh language? ……” The response is typical of those operating at loftier levels where the mundane challenge of integrating into and fostering the idigenous culture is beneath their dignity. The more you probe, the worse the odour !

  19.  

    I’ve lived here 2 years, and wish to make a positive difference after over 100 hours research in the ward, alongside living here for 2 years of course! I stood for Maidstone in 2012 as a paper candidate just before I moved to University here. I WORK, LIVE and STUDY in the ward. What an appalling assault on me as a person just for trying to help!

    •  

      Let me get this straight. You were a ‘paper candidate’ in Maidstone, but we are expected to believe you’re a serious candidate in Swansea? You may work, live and study in the ward (work?) but if elected you’ll be making decisions affecting the whole of a city you don’t know. But you aren’t even standing to represent Uplands, you’re standing for the Green Party. Exposing one of the major problems with modern politics, and why so many people are losing faith in the system.

      •  

        I did not release a leaflet in Maidstone, and merely stood to ensure The Greens had a full-slate in 2012 in Maidstone. I work part-time in a restaurant on Uplands Crescent, yes. I DO know the city, I have lived here for two years, just as much time as 6 of the incumbent Labour councillors in the city, but i don’t see you attacking them. Why don’t you attack the Plaid Cymru candidate who has lived here for the same amount of time as me. Young people are the future of politics, and it’s this kind of attack on a candidacy that puts enthusiastic locals off. I am guaranteed to be in the city at least until 2018 and I have fallen for the area, as it’s far superior to where i hail from. I don’t see me leaving even after I stop being a student here. I have given voluntary time in primary and secondary schools in the area as a Teaching Assistant. Please don’t just straight to the offensive as soon as you see a younger person from England standing in Wales. I do not agree with Pippa regarding the Welsh language, I uphold the national party’s policy on it that it should be maintained and taught in schools, and promoted. Hence my leaflet and correspondence being the only party’s (besides Plaid Cymru’s) in both Welsh and English.

        •  

          You don’t see me attacking them! I suggest you read back through this blog. Or type ‘Swansea Labour’ into the Search box. Or try ‘Il Duce Phillips’, or ‘John Bayliss’, or ‘Pearleen Sangha’. So don’t get paranoid, it’s not just you Greens I lay into. As for the Plaid Cymru candidate, whoever he or she may be, I guarantee they know Wales better than you.

          And when it comes to Green attitudes to Wales, the Welsh and the Welsh language, Bartolotti ain’t the only one exhibiting colonialist arrogance. Read this insulting bollocks by Andy Chyba http://bridgendgreens.net/2013/11/06/why-i-have-withdrawn-from-the-euro-election-by-andy-chyba/

          He has “no time for the Welsh language” and he obviously sees Wales as a region of England: “Many think that Wales should have no special privileges within GPEW, or else it should become completely autonomous like the Green Parties in Scotland and Northern Ireland. I would much rather the former than the latter. .. “.

          •  

            In retrospect yes, you have attacked so fair enough! Some good stuff there! I don’t like the generalisation that because I’m not Welsh I don’t know Wales or Swansea. I could say the same about someone from Wales not knowing Kent, but I wouldn’t, because it would make me seem petty. I’m not calling you petty, but let’s look at what I’m trying to DO rather than at my background and how it hinders me (because I am that person and I am aware of my limitations). Eurrrgh lord above, I believe he apologised for that comment, but obviously that makes it no better. I can’t speak for Andy or Pippa, I can only speak for myself and Swansea Green Party, we believe we’re a progressive force in Uplands and I will try my damndest to do my best for the people of the ward and the city.

            •  

              Look, I don’t know how many ways I have to say this before I’m understood, but . . . I sincerely believe that someone should know an area before they put themselves up for election to the authority serving that area. If fact, I would like to see legislation introduced for a five-year residency qualification period. This seems common sense to me, and that’s why I attack Bayliss and Sangha, not because he is English and she American.

              Another problem with Bayliss and Sangha is that not only do they not know Swansea, they have no real intention of getting to know the city. Being councillors for them is either just a stepping-stone in a political career or an opportunity to pursue and promote the cause that really interests them. If you were elected it would be no different, possibly worse, for you would be pursuing a Green agenda and pretending that it was good for Swansea. I would prefer councillors in my home town to start from: ‘What would be best for Swansea . . . ?’

              A final consideration is that the public at large is either turning away from politics altogether or towards what are perceived to be parties outside the Westminster or Cardiff Bay bubble. One reason for this is the rise of the professional politician. By which I mean students who graduate and go straight into politics, either as assistants to politicians, or as councillors, and then progress along that narrow path, only mixing with others like them, and becoming increasingly distanced from the lives and concerns of ordinary people.

              This is a very dangerous trend. On the hand it gives rise to political geeks like Miliband, who has no idea how to interact with ordinary people, for whom the world beyond the Labour Party is almost a closed book; while on the the other hand it creates opportunities for some ugly forces to emerge on the extremes who can gain support simply by not being associated with the discredited system.

              We need a few like Cincinnatus, but all we get are more and more Caligulas.

              •  

                Hi Jac, I can understand your opinion fully, but I have no intentions of moving away from Swansea and I am anything but a career politician as I’m training to become a Primary School Teacher (hence voluntary work in the ward). I will not graduate with a politics degree but a History with European International Relations degree and Qualified Teacher Status.

                If you’ll look at my policy here ashleyforuplands.webs.com/policy you’ll see that I am pursuing what’s best for Swansea, and not so much heavily focussed on a Green agenda, because councils serve to represent the people. I see what you’re trying to say, but I don’t think I fit into the stereotype of young careerist non-caring politician that you think I do, sorry!

                •  

                  Time alone will tell us who and what you are.

                  •  

                    Just want to correct something further up the thread, I did release a leaflet in Maidstone South, but a mere 2000, as I was pressured into making some literature available for the people, mostly online. I was a paper candidate. Anne Greagsby seems to have it in for anyone trying to do good if they’re a member of the Green Party which is a shame, it’s really hampering my enthusiasm. Although all her negative campaigning is getting my name out there and known, spoken to a few people today who have said they’ll vote for me purely because they’ve seen me getting abuse from her and others unwarranted… Time will tell who and what I am, and I will prove that I am trying to do nothing but good for the people of Uplands and Swansea. The last of my 5,000 Bilingual leaflets were delivered today!

    •  

      100 hours research ! that is an appalling assault on the people of whatever part of Swansea you purport to represent. People have lived in that ward for 10’s of thousands of hours, have a huge cumulative life experience of the sorry state of local services. You come along and treat it like some kind of academic exercise. That my boy is the appalling assault, so bloody typical of the carpetbaggers that are so often criticised (and usually rightly ) in this column. You come in, swan around with your pseudo scientific approach, and slot in neatly preying on the indifference of locals who have already had a guts full of this type of intervention by experts from outside looking for the next step up the party machine.

      •  

        100 hours research denotes time spent with residents to learn their views, because these are the people I am to represent, not the time I’ve lived in the area, which obviously extends into the thousands of hours. This is not an academic excercise! This is the future of over 17,000 people that live in the Uplands, Brynmill and Mount Pleasant area. I have had family in Uplands for decades and I resent this attitude that because I am a student I am immediately a foreigner that has no idea what has occurred in the ward before my arrival. I have been here for months before I joined the University with family. This is not a party machine excercise but an attempt to get the people of the ward truly represented. I started the petition against Uplands Costa Coffee which gained over 1000 signatures, and the Labour party ignored it. I have promised not to ignore residents in this way, because politics and becoming a councillor means you represent people. Older people should be encouraging younger people like myself into politics rather than shunning any efforts they make to make the world better in their opinion. What are we to do when all the people who have lived in the area for 20+ years are gone, and all we’ve left are people like myself?

  20.  

    Someone earlier mentioned Andy Chyba. No improvement on Pippa it would seem:

    http://bridgendgreens.net/2013/11/06/why-i-have-withdrawn-from-the-euro-election-by-andy-chyba/

    •  

      Reading that makes me think I let these bastards off lightly. Chyba has “no time for the Welsh language” and he wants the ‘Wales’ Green Party to remain part of the Green Party of England and Wales. (Still having trouble getting my head around this duality.)

  21.  

    OT
    You are right about the ambulance service. I had the unfortunate experice of needing and ambulance to Aber hospital and neither of the crews could talk to me in Welsh. And the hospital itself had few Welsh speaking staff.

    Glangwili seems little differenent. And if you ever have the unfortunate experience of being in the Chemo Unit there, you can largely forgett any Welsh language provision.

    And then moving closer to home in west Carms, then you have district nurses and ART (Acute Respose Team) nurses who don’t speak Welsh. And we are talking about people who are dealing with those who are elderly and Welsh speaking and often close to death. It’s sadly a recent esperience of mine. It’s shamefull.

    •  

      It’s the same across the board, too many of the better jobs in Wales are done by non-Welsh, and the major reason is that there is no training available, but because staff can always be recruited over the border there is no perceived shortage. And even when training is avaialble there seems to be a reluctance to take on Welsh students or trainees, as with the medical school in Cardiff. We have too many political parties and organisations claiming to represent Wales, we need just one to speak up for the interests of those who belong to this country.

      •  

        ‘And even when training is avaialble there seems to be a reluctance to take on Welsh students or trainees, as with the medical school in Cardiff’

        Evidence Jac for this assertion? We also have a medical school in Swansea thanks to WAG? Plus a lot of nursing degrees, OT, physio, social work. The courses are there and I do not know of any evidence that Welsh applicants are disadvantaged when they apply, except perhaps if their A level scores are less good than applicants from the rest of the UK. OT and physiotherapy also demand very high A level scores and there is a shortage of OTs and physios in Wales.

        Given the chronic problem of GP recruitment, there is probably a good case of lowering the scores for welsh applicants prepared to make a long term commitment to Wales as potential GPs. Even better to positively recruit Welsh speakers for these courses.

        •  

          I’m not sure what would qualify as ‘evidence’ other than an instruction not to take on Welsh students. But I have heard this claim made more than once. But whatever the reasons, my central argument holds – far too many of the better jobs in this country are, for one reason or another, denied to Welsh people. And if you want evidence for that, just look around you.

      •  

        Possibly poor STEM teaching and results are a partial reason if non Welsh students are taking up the places. Our national performance in STEM subjects and Modern Foreign Languages should be a bigger concern for WAG. You only have to look at the numbers of students taking A Levels in these subjects to see the scale of the problem.

  22.  

    with regards to ann greagsby’s comments we would like to categorically refute her wild allegations about the authorship of green dragon. we are a collection of individuals in wales and we include supporters of the wales green party, of plaid cymru and of no party at all – but what unites us is that we want to see a progressive green and nuclear free wales.

    while you jac and this blog’s readers may also be interested to know that ashley wakeling’s election material for the by election cited in swansea is bilingual – unlike the election literature of other parties contesting this by election

    kind regards gd

    •  

      Nice to hear that Wakeling’s election material is bilingual. But when compared with comments on the language made by Chyba and Bartolotti this only exposes further the divide within the Green Party. So are we dealing with factions within the Green Party? Or is this divide telling us that there is more than one Green Party operating in Wales?

  23.  

    as we commented earlier jac the wales green party is evolving, and it might be true to say that some of its members are catching up with devolution. but we like to think that in time it will adopt the hugely successful course undertaken by its sister party in scotland. while nobody would defend the comments made by andy chyba on the welsh language last year – and such comments are clearly not in any way representative of the wales green party or its membership.

    the wales green party’s support for the welsh language is clear and yes its good to see this support for bilingualism being demonstarted by young ashley wakeling in swansea.

    •  

      But it’s not just Chyba, is it? Similar remarks were made by Pippa Bartolotti, and aren’t you supporting her?

  24.  

    So come clean Martyn, whoops – green dragon. Your co-conspirator Ashley promises transparency and accountability – where is yours?

  25.  

    Just noticed The Challenge for Progressives / Y Her Blaengar Monday, November 24, 2014 at 6:00pm
    Hosted by Compass Cymru / Compass Wales sincerely hope they’ve nothing to do with green dragon.
    Martyn…whoops – green dragon new blog set up with the purpose of promoting that phoney Bartolotti for the leadership of the green party in wales and singing her praises – OMG hardly progressives of any sort then! lol

  26.  

    well anne greagsby is certainly no columbo – her repeated attempts to identify those involved in the green dragon blog are embarrassingly wide of the mark, if only she spent a fraction of the time attacking the nuclear power industry in wales as she does the wales green party and some of its members, and opponents of the nuclear power industry like green dragon.

    yes jac the green dragon is supporting pippa bartolotti ahead of andy chyba in the wales green party leadership contest but we of course wouldnt support the comments greagsby has attributed to pippa – if pippa did indeed make such comments. but we do know that pippa has often spoken in support of the welsh language during her time as wales green party leader. further pippa is of course bound by the same welsh language policies that every other officer of the wales green party is

    sincerely
    gd

  27.  

    Am I wide of the mark? You are obviously cowards. Martyn even setting up a fictitious account ‘Brig Strawbridge’ to promote Bartolotti — Bartolotti – on facebook today
    “A move to ‘Reserved Powers’ for Wales is a good move. It means we will actually know which powers we have. Right now it is very unclear.” ???
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-30004665

  28.  

    piece of advice anne greagsby – when youre in a hole stop digging. your claims regarding the authorship of the green dragon get more bizarre with every post, indeed they are outlandish even by the notorious standards those acquainted with your history of wild and hysterical accusations have grown accustomed to.

    while you are in no position to hurl accusations of cowardice around, given you are the author of a blog that makes the most vile claims and insinuations about people in the wales green party and yet you have never admitted to the authorship of the said blog – granted this may have something to do with the fact the smears and allegations the blog contains are almost certainly actionable. indeed it is almost certain they will fall foul of newly proposed ‘trolling’ legislation.

    is also worth pointing out to anyone who may be unacquainted with you that before your expulsion from the wales green party last year you regularly abused plaid cymru in the same despicable manner with which you now abuse the wales green party.- yet you are now a member of plaid cymru!

    yes one thing we can agree on is a move to reserved powers for wales is a good thing, as its clearly unacceptable that a welsh government can find itself dragged thru the courts when it tries to introduce legislation in an area of welsh life which is already devolved.

  29.  

    No need for that level of aggression! lol -re the obscure blog authors I only suggested Martyn Shrewsbury but will add most likely aided by aided by the likes of Wanklin, Neil Wagstaff and Wakeling. Conference voted my expulsion UNCONSTITUTIONAL however so undemocratic is the green party I remained suspended and decided I was wasting my time and could use my skills under the leadership of Leanne Wood in Plaid Cymru. The level of bullying and harassment I received in the male dominated Cardiff green party was appalling but the green party didnt want to address that nor Bartolotti.

  30.  

    Does anyone know if writing in all lower case helps save the planet?

  31.  

    Jac – Your question: are there two Green parties in Wales is pointed, but the Green Party responders duck it.

    The principal division is not over the Welsh language, but over an open collective versus a hierarchical structure with deference to a ‘leader’. Bartolotti and the leading group wants to expel me for a questioning letter in the internal Newsletter and reporting criticisms of the leaderships in England as well as Wales. I referred to the Wikipedia page on Bartolotti’s career, so she got that taken down (see at http://www.pippabartolotti.info/2014/05/page-deleted-from-wikipedia-at-request.html ). The expulsion attempt is to come to an internal Green Party disciplinary Tribunal at the end of November.

    The Green Party historically was opposed to censorship, but the present leadership in Wales makes out that embarrassing exposures of the leader are disloyal – even defamation – and an expulsion issue. GreenDragon censoring of blog comments shows which side they’re on agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/we-are-backing-pippa.html

    Bartolotti and the secretary Ann Were likewise suppressed criticism of deputy leader Chris Were’s sexist and misogynistic blogging (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/green-party-deputy-leader-criticised-3815133) with Bartolotti announcing that the Green Party is a “forgiving party” (except, of course, of those who criticise its leaders). As you detect, jac, we are a “fractious outfit” – we had revelled in diversity and free expression until the centralising ‘leadership’ trend developed. Bartolotti’s Tribunal against me will challenge that.

    •  

      I highlighted the Welsh language simply because of some unfortunate remarks mde by Adam Busby, Pippa Bartolotti, Andy Chyba and others displayed a rather hostile attitude to Welsh distinctiveness. Though the real issue for me is whether we have a separate Wales Green Party or whether we have some grouping within the Green Party of England and Wales. My reason for seeking to establish this is because it is reported that Plaid Cymru plans to form an electoral pact with ‘the Greens’. As many Plaid Cymru supporters read this blog I felt they were entitled to know what they might be voting for if presented with a joint Plaid-Green candidate next year or in 2016.

      I am now satisfied that there is no separate Green Party in Wales, any comparison with the Scottish Greens is entirely – perhaps deliberately – misleading, but will doubtless be used to mislead Plaid Cymru supporters. And if your analysis is correct, then it seems to me they’ll also be asked to vote for a stalinist party. That said, the link you provided to bankrupt companies, shell companies, and other little snippets, has aroused in me a certain curiosity about the flamboyant Ms Bartolotti.

      •  

        Is there a telephone kiosk small enough not to embarrass them ( the Greens ) ?They certainly don’t like each other much, if at all – perhaps a munber of small green kiosks would suit ? Having read much of the exchanges on here over last few days I think that Ms Wood and her inner circle need to think very carefully before engaging in any kind of ” deal” with this lot as Wales comes somewhere way down the pecking order of their priorities on most counts. Yes they can roll out policies and take up “positions” but their actions ( and some words ) suggest the contrary.

        •  

          If I was a Plaidista negotiating an electoral pact wth ‘the Greens, I’d be asking myself, ‘Which sect exactly are we getting into bed with here, and how representative are these people I’m talking to of the wider party in Wales, and of course beyond (because it’s clear now that there is no independent Wales Green Party)?’. My guess is that Plaid will fudge it by arguing for ‘local deals’. So that Plaid in Cwmscwt West will do a deal with the ‘nice’ Greens on their patch while pretending that the frothing-at-the-mouth, anti-Welsh colonialists in Cwmscwt East don’t exist.

  32.  

    So the Green Party in Wales has around 300 members, heaven knows why Plaid are bothering with them? To be seen as a nice party by London luvvies I expect. Meanwhile the Welsh working class are ignored.

    •  

      The more I think about it, the more I suspect that deals will be done constituency by constituency. One deal will almost certainly be in Ceredigion, for the reasons I set out in the post.

  33.  

    if there’s only 300 we could round them up and recycle them into pellets for wood burning power stations which is so very near & dear to them !! tee hee

  34.  

    The simple answer is to contact the ‘One True Green Party of Englandandwales’ and ask them about it. Either these mushes in Wales are pretending (they are) that there is a Welsh Green Party (there isn’t) or those mushes in England are lying (they aren’t) about there only being a ‘One True Green Party of Englandandwales’ (there is).

    And as for the self-appointed saviour of the Uplands, why the hell does he have a to bach on the W at the start of his surname? For those not aware his name is displayed on his twitter as Ŵakeling.

  35.  

    before the cheerleaders for nuclear power in wales get too excited the figure cited for wales green party membership by albert hill is hopelessly out of date, as it was recently announced that wales green party membership has increased by by 75 percent since january 2014 when membership did indeed stand at around 300. with regards to max wallis’s claims of alleged censorship on greendragon we dont publish comments which are racist or libellous – a policy we think any responsible blog authors would adopt.

    jac youll see an example of ashley wakeling’s and the swanea green’s committment to bilingualism in this feature, which includes some of their election materials http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/election-news-from-swansea-and-neath.html

    while with regards to the possibility of any kinds of electoral arrangements with plaid it is worth noting that the wales greens are currently running ahead of the lib dems in some poll projections for 2016, and as it stands are not that far away from gaining a seat on the welsh assembly without having to enter into any horsetrading with plaid.

    •  

      Let’s not get side-tracked by the Welsh language, I only introduced it because of Cynog Dafis’ document, in which he had quoted some disturbing things said to him by Busby and Nicholson, attitudes that seemed to be echoed by Chyba and Bartolotti. Such hostility to the Welsh language almost certainly extends to other manifestations of Welsh identity. That being so, how Welsh is the self-styled ‘Welsh Green Party’, and does it enjoy an existence separate to the Green Party of England and Wales?

      I am now convinced that the few hundred active Greens in Wales contain too many self-important individuals which results in feuding cliques within a constantly fragmenting party that is little more than a glorified regional branch of the Green Party of Englandandwales.

  36.  

    would like to know what ‘regional branch’ of the green party in england produces election materials in welsh jac? also worth recalling that the only party contesting the swansea uplands by election distributing bilingual material is the green party candidate ashley wakeling – plaid presumambly would, but the ‘party of wales’ dont appear to have even put out a leaflet in the area we are very disappointed to report.

    further which party in wales – other than plaid cymru – would use language such as

    “As Wales moves towards sovereignty, we will seek membership of the European Union and the United Nations. Within these institutions, we will promote our vision of a sustainable world. We will campaign for reform of the United Nations such that UN membership is available to nations (including Wales) which are not, as yet, sovereign”.

    it is clear to us at greendragon that some people seem to have real difficulty in grasping the fact that the wales green party is becoming a part of the fabric of political life in wales.

    wake up and smell the coffee guys (fair trade coffee naturally)

  37.  

    Regarding Wales Green Party leadership, I support NEITHER candidate and will be calling for the re-opening of nominations. I do not feel that ANY person running for this election is suitable for the role. I also feel that Wales Green Party do not need a leader as such but merely a press-contact or General Secretary without such monopoly over the party. And you can quote that if you wish. We’re a party that needs community leadership working TOGETHER for the best of the people of Wales, and at the moment, I don’t feel we’re doing that nationally, but I’m trying my darndest down here in Swansea

    •  

      Some cynics – not me of course! – might suggest that the ‘Wales Green Party’ doesn’t need a leader because it already has one in whoever is running the Green Party of Englandandwales.

  38.  

    The Wales Green party does have its own leader jac, who is elected by green party members in Wales. Just as green party policies which apply to wales are drawn up by members in Wales.

    •  

      It was your own candidate who suggested the ‘Wales Green Party’ doesn’t need a leader. Something I found very revealing. The idea of a genuine, independent political party without a leader is absolute bollocks. But it makes perfect sense if there is no ‘Wales Green Party’.

      •  

        We need a figurehead and press-contact as I have stated. I believe that Wales Green Party should seek independent status from the England & Wales Green Party as soon as possible and undergo a SERIOUS reshuffle in the people who currently lead the party

  39.  

    Re. Green Dragon’s censoring by excluding comments on their Blog (item 35 above) they posted on 8 November two excuses for their failure to post up responses
    # “server difficulties regrettably”… yet the delayed responses have still not appeared
    # no “platform for their personal vendettas“ …. decided by a grand censor, of course.
    Here, on Friday at item 35 a different excuse:
    # “we dont publish comments which are racist or libellous “

    My censored COMMENT of 6 Nov. 7am was in fact:
    • What is this blog-owner’s stance on censoring comments, since she/he has blocked my latest comment about Bartolotti’s integrity in relation to her former business links with supplying military electronics?
    • With my suspicious mind, I’m thinking the two ‘anonymous’ comments targeted at Andy Chyba and attacking Plaid Cymru might be from the blogger or a friend. Transparency is needed to show ‘Green Dragon’ is really across Welsh political parties rather than a disguised Bartolotti supporter.

    Honesty is also a requirement of a censor, especially with ‘Green Dragon’ taking sides in an internal Green Party election. A Green Dragon created with this Achilles heel of the sectarian/conspiratorial left will surely remain crippled.

  40.  

    Point of information jac – Ashley is not the Green Dragon’s ‘candidate’.Yes we have been very supportive of his campaign in swansea, just as we are very supportive of plaid leader leanne. As welsh eco socialists we will publicly support those in Wales who we feel reflect the Green Dragon’s values.

    Yes we would agree with you in what you say about the importance of a political party having an eleced leader, and we are pleased to report we know of no plans by the wales green party to adopt Ashley’s thinking on this matter.

  41.  

    Well talk about the pot calling the kettle black lol, as there really is no one more ‘conspiritorial’ or ‘sectarian’ than max wallis – evidenced by his expulsion from the wales green party last year of course. But it remains a real puzzle why wallis seems to spend his every waking online hour attacking individuals in the wales green party and eco socialist blogs, yet he has nothing to say about the very real prospect of high grade radioactive waste being produced and buried in wales.http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/wales-own-edge-of-darkness.html

    While there is nothing remotely unusual about a political blog expressing its support for a particular candidate in a party’s leadership contest, a number of welsh blogs took a position during plaid’s 2012 leadership contest for example. We suspect that wallis is irked because we did not declare support his own favoured candidate for the wales green party leadership.

    With regards to his claims of censorship to repeat we at green dragon do not publish comments which we feel may be libellous. We also note wallis ommitted to mention that he has had comments published on green dragon.

  42.  

    Green dragon eegits! Strange no article supporting Leanne Wood in your short life – since last month! However there are several articles supporting Ashley and his fraudster agent in Swansea. And of course your support for eccentric fantasist Bartolotti which proves you are certainly NOT LEFT in any accurate sense nor eco socialists. As Jax said – more Stalinist. Even the green party’s own green left won’t have Bartolotti who describes herself as a victim of the comprehensive system of non education leaving school at 15 (which shows) not to mention all her other gaffes and jag driving nonsense – so green dragon must be rather dimwitted to support an English unionist spokesperson who doesn’t know her left from right who would be better off taking her amateur dramatics to a theatre! Or joining UKIP. And poor young Ashley = early onset…’forgetfulness’ so soon after standing in England. Oh dear! And your mate
    David Richards who is camera shy on facebook promoting green dragon on your page and extreme conspiracy theorist? Another swansea dragon who gives you good advice “Also worth remembering that ‘deepthroat’ had very good reasons for staying in the shadows” couldn’t make it up..
    The wales section of the green partys own AGM wasn’t quorate (note the spelling Ash) but that didn’t stop them appointing officers – I suppose including that old policeman control freak John Matthews who has been running the wales section for over a decade who was Bartolottis mentor, as she isn’t a feminist and ignorant, in a pretence of ‘gender balance’ except he created a monster. He also controls the male dominated Cardiff party which covers the whole of south wales central Assembly constituency to include himself from Abercynon, Mountain Ash because he couldn’t get a branch up and running… such eco warriors travelling such distances regularly by car whilst finger wagging at others. Real environmentalists practice what they preach.

  43.  

    yawn more names plucked out of the air by the wales green party’s own ‘number one fan’, the sewer mouthed anne greagsby, Must say anne your ‘suspect list’ is growing at a rather bewildering rate – martyn shrewsbury, ashley wakeling, neil wagstaffe, davd richards, pippa bartolotti john matthews. Can you please make up your mind anne as this really must be getting most confusing for reader’s of jac’s blog.

    Incidentally anne as youre apparently a member of plaid cymru’s national council http://www.partyofwales.org/womens-section/ are you speaking for the party of wales when indulging in your apparent favourite past time of anti english rants? we should be told?

    No we really do like you anne honestly – you dont know how many laughs youve given us – but we have to admit we hope we never fall unconscious in a snow drift near your home.

  44.  

    Anti English rants? Where are they then?! I didn’t accuse john matthews of writing any blog because hes illiterate and it seems you don’t actually take the trouble to actually read accurately. However I think this green dragon is way too arrogant, aggressive and bad tempered to listen to reason. No-one with half a brain who is truly left or an environmentalist would support Bartolotti – why on earth would you? I’ll willing to listen to your reasons! This is solely my opinion based on my research and experience. So pleased that you are having such fun, like sniggering schoolboys, while being so cowardly, hiding behind anonymity whilst mocking free speech and fair comment.

  45.  

    I missed the Bumblebee show on Thurs p.m. but I am informed that Leanne Wood pushed her boat out saying clearly that – London has made Wales poor. It serves London’s needs to keep Wales poor.

    When I read that I thought well bloody hell the girl’s woke up ! If she keeps saying things like that she’ll start a fire in the country, convincing the Welsh people of these truths, bring on some hard hitting policies for the rebuilding of a nation, ditch the silly pink metropolitan soft left nonsense, and we have something to work on. We as scribblers must now keep reminding Plaid that they’ve struck some good chords and they must keep doing so until we get some real results and then redouble the effort further.

    •  

      I gave up on QT years ago. It’s OK for a bit of slapstick politics and soundbites but nothing more. Then there’s the attitude to Wales, mainly English panel and an almost entirely English audience; with the result that QT from Wales might as well have stayed in England.

      But if LW did say that then it certainly gives grounds for hope. Anyone who’s read this blog, or anything else I’ve written, will know that I have consistently argued that unless and until Plaid Cymru starts focusing on Welsh issues and addressing a Welsh audience – without worrying how this might play with the metropolitan eco-Left – then it has no future as a party.

  46.  

    considering the questions selected by the lovely david (as ben elton once called him) had virtually nothing to do with wales, and the fact that the audience was rigged – note the question chosen from welsh tory leon bancroft – leanne did rather well.

    here’s our take on her performance on the show http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/so-how-did-leanne-do.html

  47.  

    Poor Green Dragon – asked about censorship and shown one Blog comment they’ve censored (39 above), they trot out ‘libellous’ (41), an excuse that obviously does not apply, ie. won’t give their censoring principles and censors a post that asks for them.

    Green Dragon’s publishing “anonymous” attacks on Andy Chyba, including one from the fictitious Brig Strawbridge (now disappeared) also require explaining (post 39). My terming the unaccountable censor as the Achilles heel of the sectarian/conspiratorial left seems to have riled Green Dragon’s sensitivities.

    I did disclose on this blog (post 31) that Bartolotti and I are up for an internal Green Party Tribunal at the end of November. She wants to expel me for questioning her past business activities, but the mainstream Green Party, unlike the Bartolotti faction, does not assume the conclusion.

  48.  

    the plot thickens – this is getting better than a john le carre novel 🙂 all of us owe you max and your partner in crime annie wilkes….er sorry we mean annie greagsby…. a huge debt of gratitude for all the entertainment you are providing us with on these dark cold winter evenings.

    we feared the last great comedy double act ended wth the passing away of the great eric morecambe but with the emergence of max and anne it looks like our fears may have been be unfounded. well okay maybe youre more krankies than eric and ern…..but were sure you get our drift max.

    yes the timing of your very public allegations about the walesgreen party are very interesting given the wales green party has never been in better shape, as we report here http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/wales-green-party-conference-2014.html

    but as we pointed out on greendragon, when we looked at the issue of the secret british state and nuclear power in wales, there are clearly powerful interests afoot that want to see a weak small impotent wales green party and greatly fear the emergence of a strong growing green party in wales
    http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/wales-own-edge-of-darkness.html

    now thats the 98th comment so please reply so we get to have the 100th comment and the prize that goes with it 🙂

  49.  

    You’re still laughing although the sad Wales section of the England and wales green party is so unsuccessful that the AGM couldn’t even be quourate. Now that is funny considering the boasts we have to listen to from a bunch of fantasists. Not even a nomination for General Secretary at the ‘AGM’.

    However, wales green party can continue to ignore the constitution! it seems Peter Ashley Clifford Varley is new elections organiser but hes lost as he says we can’t even produce a coherent document on Welsh policy surrounding devolved powers until the Spring maybe …”policy on devolved powers will be presented to a Special General Meeting in the spring (date and location to be decided) by a working group set up to discuss them. The current drafts of policy on devolved powers have been available on the members’ web site since the summer, and will be used as a starting point for discussion. If you believe that they are incoherent, you must go to the members’ web site and say so.
    “… we seem to have no particular stance on Welsh recognition within the EU …”
    This is discussed in (probably too much) detail in the draft International policy. If you don’t agree with it, you should suggest improvements.

    “… we don’t promote Welsh language …”There is a draft Welsh Language policy. If you don’t agree with it, you should suggest improvements.

    “… we have no radical policies to promote, support or celebrate Welsh identity …”
    The draft Culture, Media and Sport policy is not all it could be, and could do with improvement. Suggestions would be welcome.

    “… we have opportunity to call for further devolved powers for the WA …”
    We do indeed. What should be top priority?
    Oh what the heck…” WGP policies on devolved topics are for the 2016 Assembly Election and don’t affect the 2015 General Election. It would still be nice to get them in place as quickly as possible.” Never mind Bartolotti will continue to make it up as she goes along.

    Of course Bartolotti being ignorant wouldn’t have thought that It’s probably better to have enemies inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. Not that I would want to be associated with such an eccentric bunch of earth worshippers, bone shakers, convicted fraudsters and those who are economical with the truth. Now that’s funny.

  50.  

    You’ve been very tolerant with my efforts to call to account the greendragon bloggers of a covert Green Party faction (times 31, 39, 47 above). While you’ve uncovered a refusal to disclose any identities, it appears from the speedy, poorly worded non-responses that one person is primarily responsible. In contrast with your own openness and wide acceptance of blog comments, greendragon both excludes similar ones and refuse to explain their censorship practice, including censoring a post that asks for the censoring policy.

    It’s unfair of you to term the whole Wales section of the Green Party ‘stalinist’ (post 31); the party belongs to its members and the 200% increase in membership (over the 300 of January) opens the way to transforming it into an open democratic party. Returning to the original subject of your blog, you can certainly conclude they are far from ready and mature enough for an electoral pact with Plaid.

    Isn’t it time you told greendragon that your readers have lost patience with the squabbling over their covert Green Party faction – to copy it over to the greendragon blog and pursue there the arguments over censorship and transparency?

    •  

      As an insider you obviously understand the factionalism better than I. You probably know who’s who and who’s on which side. Being an outside observer I can only form impressions from what I’m told and from what I learn by making enquiries. Given my general position on Wales you must have realised that if Wales had the equivalent of the Scottish Green Party I wouldn’t be writing anything negative. It’s the sheer alien-ness and imposed, colonialist nature of Green politics in Wales that stirs me to write. It’s happening in my country but with virtually no involvement from, or concern for, my prople. The Greens may be eco-socialist, but in their attitudes to Wales and Welsh nationhood they seem to be worse than any openly Unionist right winger.

  51.  

    We pointed out earlier that – courtesy of ‘the fledgling comedy duo ‘max n anne’ – this thread was entering the realms of a john le carre novel, but in view of anne greagsby’s latest barely comprehensible diatribe against the wales green party we feel bound to say it would now appear to be heading into the realms of CS lewis and Narnia land. But whatever the literary genre her contributions belong in it’s clear they are firmly in the fiction category. Say what you like but it seems people can learn an awful lot from these creative writing courses.

    So just for clarification this is the Wales Green Party’s actual position on Wales and the EU
    “As Wales moves towards sovereignty, we will seek membership of the European Union and the United Nations”.

    And this is the WGP’s actual position on the Welsh language
    http://wales.greenparty.org.uk/policy/manifesto-for-a-sustainable-society-in-wales/wel.-the-welsh-language.html

    What’s surely ‘funny’ however is the fact that one time Wales green party member and fierce Plaid Cymru critic, Anne Greagsby, is now a plaid cymru member and and a fierce Wales Green Party critic (work that one out)

    http://www.freedomcentral.org.uk/2011/03/question-marks-on-plaid-cymru-election-pledge.html (see coment 2)

    http://yourcardiff.mediawales-1.titaninternet.co.uk/2012/04/25/election-2012-plaid-cymru-are-community-activists-not-politicians-neil-mcevoy/
    (note comment 3)

    It’s good to see max wallis aknowledge the significant growth in Wales green party membership this year, but he it should be pointed out this has occured in spite of the public attempts of Max n Anne to publicly undermine the Wales green party at every opportunity. Thankfully it would appear that they have not been successful and the Wales greens look well placed to secure a seat at the Welsh Assembly in 2016, and to lead the opposition to the planned Wylfa b and the possible dumping of high grade radioactive waste in Wales.

    http://agreenwales.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/wales-own-edge-of-darkness.html

    •  

      For some reason a number of your recent comments ended up in my spam folder. I can see now that they were repeats, so I’ve deleted the earlier ones.

  52.  

    Green Dragon/Martyn Still trying to have the last word/insult. Neil and I are adults and have made peace! I can admit when I get it wrong. Dream on would be greens.

  53.  

    What a great comic blog. Political satire at its best, you guys should have your own show.

  54.  

    Dear sir,

    You have entirely overloked a number of progressive green party members in self-selecting bias of your opinion of who makes up Green Party membership. I have been studying Welsh for many years, sent my children to the local village Welsh speaking school, actively encouraged them to be bilingual and am proud both my sons are taking all their exams through Welsh. I am an incredibly strong supporter of local business and think that they should be given priority in the provision of services. Localism is in fact a core aspect of being Green.

    I was leader of Wales Green Party for a year and candidate in a number of elections. I may have grown up in England but my grandmother was Welsh and I do not consider myself middle class, just educated. It doesn’t take money to be green – just care on what you buy. When I campaigned against Tesco in Aberystwyth because it would be detrimental to local shops, it was a Plaid member and Plaid councillors attacking me.

    I cannot support joining up of Plaid and Greens, not becuase I disagree with many Plaid policies and support for the language and the people striving to make a living here, but because I have found there to be people in it who judge me based on who they think I am due to their perception of my background and income.

    Love your country. Love your people. Don’t hate everybody else – they may just love it too….

    •  

      I don’t hate everybody else. Far from it. My position is that I can quite easily ignore 99.9999999999999% of the human race because they have no influence on Wales and aren’t here trying to run my country. I am solely concerned with those who have an influence on the running of my country, be they politicians, media, Third Sector scroungers, or anyone else. My special contempt is reserved for those who impose themselves on Wales in a colonialist manner and then insist we adopt their policies, their mind-set. What makes this even more annoying is such people operating within an Englandandwales framework. Such as the Green Party.

      The proposed Tesco store for Aberystwyth is an interesting case. Plaid councillors support the development because that’s what most of their constituents want, it’s simple political survival. You will find politicians of all political hues behaving in exactly the same way in every other town, and when they don’t, they pay the price. As they did some years ago in Tywyn, when local councillors opposed a Co-op store for the town in order to protect the interests of a fellow-Mason who ran Spar, the only ‘supermarket’ in town.

  55.  

    I’d be interested to get a better understanding of the growing relationship between Plaid Cymru and UKIP. With members now defecting from PC to UKIP, can anybody comment on the increasing belief of many voters that PC and UKIP are in fact moving towards some sort of nationalist ‘kick-them-all-out’ dream team.

  56.  

    Having only just stumbled across this treasure-trove of egotistical and conspiratorial gunk, I have a few comments:

    1. god knows I was never a fan of Chris Busby, back in the days when it seemed to matter what happened in the Green Party, but he was surely correct to object to the conduct of community council busines solely in Welsh.

    “Eff off home” indeed (or “Spend your money and eff off” as it tends to be finessed in the more tourism-based communities)!

    Formally speaking these are locally-elected public decision-taking bodies in an officially bilingual nation. Less formally, but of considerable practical significance, half the adult population is monoglot-English even in the Welsh-speaking “heartlands”.

    This would tend to suggest, Mr o’North, that you are no kind of democrat, but I guess this is covered, in all senses, by your self-description as “right of centre nationalist”. “Left of centre internationalist” would have served the same purpose.

    2. Someone here (#40) with a concealed identity said they intended to “publicly support” something, but I have to point out that you cannot lend your “public support” to anything if your identity is concealed.

    3. Reading through samples of this gunk, jolly though some of it is, I was reminded of the life and times of Mikhail Bakunin, with his love and/or fear of secret societies. Why do you all need to conceal your identities while discussing what can only be described as public policy? How can you possibly see that as appropriate?

    I couldn’t come up with a plausible answer, until I came across this (towards the end of #17):

    “By even posing the question of which language my mother-in-law spoke you come across as a very special kind of scumbag. Rest assured that if I am lucky enough to identify you there’ll be a price to pay.”

    OK, there are at least two valid reasons for concealing your identity, both ugly.

  57.  

    Your problem is that you really don’t understand how arrogant, bigoted and colonialist your views are. ‘The locals may all speak Welsh, but I’m here now – so speak English!’

    Which is what encourages people to say “Eff off home” to people like you. And why it’s been said to Englishmen like you all over the world, ever since you decided you had a God-given right to dictate to other peoples, even in their own countries.

  58.  

    David Bradney sounds like one of the Green Party candidates in the Euro-elections of 2004. If so, he should tell his then fellow candidate Martyn Shrewsbury to end concealing his identity under ‘Green dragon’ – and apologise for accusing you Jac of similar concealment.

    •  

      Sorry, you can’t drag me into any of that. If you read what I wrote again you will see that I mainly think it is amusing that anyone would want to engage in public debate using a false name or concealed identity. Of course if there was any ill intent it would not be amusing, that would be sinister.

      •  

        Are you saying you’re amused at Martyn Shrewsbury inventing an “independent” blog to promote himself and Bartolotti ? At concocting the Brig Strawbridge facebook page to attack Bartolotti’s opponent under that guise. Do you refuse to remember the damage to the Wales Green Party from Shrewsbury’s run-in with Myron Evans over fraud allegations, then his going bankrupt [http://www.swanseasound.co.uk/news/local/fraud-case] and fraudulently disposing of assets ? Do you now regret being joint election candidate with this fraudster?

        •  

          … if Jac will permit …

          I don’t mind criticism, but it’s best to read what I wrote first. What I said was: ” … it is *amusing” that anyone would want to engage in public debate using a false name or concealed identity”. I stand by that.

          I was pretty much out of WGP-level activity by the end of 2004, when I was replaced as WGP treasurer by an acolyte of MS. They didn’t seem to realise what a favour they had done me! I drove down to Sketty with two boxes of paperwork and spent a whole afternoon doing a face-to-face handover, promising to help over the phone if anything proved difficult. The guy spent the next year doing absolutely nothing, as far as I could see, and judging by the complaints I got, and WGP as I understand it had to get rid of him. Plus ca change.

          I was Martyn’s favourite punchbag for a while, having been the lead Assembly candidate in 1999, and I formed the impression that he was pathetic, dangerously unreliable, given to unpredictable rages, and at times only loosely connected to reality. But as far as the specific events you mention they were after my time. I can truthfully say that unless I have forgotten I have never heard of Myron Evans. I only found out about the alleged fraud allegations much later.

          If I was an EU candidate with MS I don’t think that is anything for me to apologise for – there are no specific procedures for potential candidates to vet other candidates before deciding whether to stand, and if there were then the GP would probably have no candidates at all!

          I probably won’t post on this site again (while reserving the “right” to reply to anything fresh that is said about me), This is Jac’s site and he has said that he doesn’t want me on it, which is fair enough and no great hardship. I would have liked to talk to Jac more – I found his pictures of the FWA days very moving (although exclusively male) – but you can see what he’s like, there’s no point in arguing.

          •  

            You’re obviously a sensitive soul so I don’t want you running away with the idea that you’re unwelcome. If you feel you have something to contribute, then you make a comment.

            Yes, the FWA was exclusively male.

            •  

              Yes I am, is that a bad thing in your Wales?

              What did the women who were close to it think about the FWA? As feminists used to say, we’re talking about “half the sky” here.

              Thanks for your invite, we’ll see.

          •  

            That’s helpful, David, disclosing your insider knowledge/opinion of the Wales Green Party’s former leader, as MS is trying a come-back within the new generation of largely incomers. Your former colleague, Chris Simpson, competently took over your old treasurer job till 2013 and scored relatively well in the last Assembly election, Ceredigion seat. The welcome back given by the Party to MS, including by remnant of the old guard, Ann Were, current ‘regional party chair’, hardly befits an organisation seeking Welsh political party status and alliance in any way with Plaid.

            •  

              Wasn’t particularly trying to be helpful Max, just telling it as I saw it. I kept my end up in disputes with Martyn, but it was hard and unrewarding work.

              Now I’ll try to be helpful. At the end of our push to the 1999 (first Assembly) elections, my strong recommendations to WGP for the next stage were:

              1. Stop focusing on Mid and West, even though it is the region with most support at the moment, because there is zero all-Wales media coverage, even less than in N Wales. Prioritise the capital, where access to the media is greatest, as the Scottish Greens did with Edinburgh.

              2. Get free of the English Greens, whatever you do, because they are never going to understand our situation in Wales and we are always going to be seen by them as a pawn that can be sacrificed in other games.

              Neither piece of advice was taken. The focus shifted to Swansea, because that was what MS wanted. A motion to go independent like the Scottish Greens had done was voted down at WGP conference. The Valleys Boys didn’t approve, dunno why.

              If there is any comeback from MS or anything that sounds like him I will probably not respond, but don’t take that for agreement or acquiescence!

  59.  

    OK, I’m going to assume that you didn’t have/take long to construct that reply. “People like you.” You certainly don’t know anything about me, or my opinions or life circumstances. You are just speaking out of your own prejudices and stereotypes. The idea that I have “dictated to other peoples in their own countries” I’m not even going to address, although using my own prejudices I can probably predict what you will say …

    Sure it’s irritating for members of a cosy Welsh-speaking community council to be approached by an English-monoglot resident (quite possibly with authentic Welsh roots, unless you don’t consider that the start of the Industrial Revolution goes far enough back) who wants to participate in his/her local democracy. But that’s democracy, it’s irritating, if what passes for democracy at the moment has benefits a lack of irritation is not normally listed amongst them. Elected representatives have a duty, and should welcome the duty, to be inclusive and transparent and accountable. And, dammit, welcoming and cooperative.

    Equally it’s irritating for a bank (and please take note that in mentioning bankers I am not expressing a liking for them) to have some member of the WLS come in and say “Your normal customers may all speak English, but I’m here now – so speak Welsh.” But I would support them in that, because it’s perfectly reasonable when you’re not abroad to want to conduct your business in the language in which you are most comfortable.”

    That said, it doesn’t particularly bother me what you think about me, but it does bother me that you didn’t address the questions. Maybe you couldn’t actually see that you were being asked questions. Sort of red mist.

    1. What should be the relationship, in your view, between English-monoglot residents and their Welsh-monoglot community council? Should they be excluded entirely from this aspect of local democracy on the basis of the languages that they can speak, or should they be offered some second-tier version of it?

    2. Why do you and most of the respondents to this blog need to conceal your identities? Do you just like the feeling of being sinister and clandestine and having secret information?

    Take it seriously this time?

    •  

      As you say, this is a bilingual country – get used to it. If you wish to intrude upon any group that normally uses the Welsh language then bring an interpreter, because it is the height of colonialist arrogance to expect them all to switch to English just for you.

      Unless you have something to contribute other than your hang-ups over the Welsh language maybe you’d better stay away.

      •  

        This is not “any group” we are talking about, this is an official body which exists to express local democracy and take local decisions. In a bilingual country (surprised you admit it), if you do not have access to this because you do not speak a preferred language then there are bound to be disputes.

        If this was a hang-up it would be a hang-up about democracy, not about the Welsh language, and you would not be the first person to have told me that I had a hang-up about democracy.

        Now you can immoderate this reply out of existence, if that is what you mean by “maybe you’d better stay away”. But we will both know you couldn’t answer it. And people who know me who see that I don’t seem to have replied will know what you did.

        Now answer question 2?

        •  

          There was no problem ’til people like you turned up, demanding your ‘rights’. In my book, the interests of the indigenous population, those born and bred in Wales, those to whom Wales belongs, should always take priority over the interests or wishes – let alone, demands – of arrivals from outside Wales. Does this make me a blood and soil nationalist? Quite frankly, I don’t give a fuck.

          •  

            Well good luck with turning the clock back. Maybe you and your mates can have a go at your project when public order in the yookay starts to break down, if you’re still around by then. You could call yourself Owain Glyndwr – oh no, that wouldn’t do, cos he only got going when he couldn’t get a favourable judgement out of the English king. What an eye-opener for him. Further back then, that guy that murdered his brother, can’t remember his name. Not Cain and Abel, not quite that far.

            And you still didn’t answer question 2! Thought you might not. Bye.

            •  

              So predictable! You have attack me, but you do it by insulting our national hero. Why? People like you may fool Plaid Cymru but you’ve never fooled me. When it comes to Wales and (especially) the Welsh your views are no different to those of the bigots down the golf club, or in the lodge. Ukip with beards. Just go away.

Ok, you’ve read what I think, now what do you have to say?