More On The Green Party Of Englandandwales

This time last week I didn’t know a lot about the Green Party, its leading personalities and its internal workings, this week I know a little more; enough to know that Plaid Cymru would be making a big mistake to go into any form of electoral pact with the Green Party.

Let’s start by trying to establish exactly what we are dealing with: is there a separate Wales Green Party (as we are being asked to believe), or do we have just a regional branch of the Green Party of Englandandwales? I believe the answer is definitely the latter. And even if there were a separate body, note how it calls itself the ‘Wales Green Party’, not the Welsh Green Party. Compare that with the Scottish Green Party, which is completely independent of the GPE. This is more than just semantics, for the Scottish Green Party is composed overwhelmingly of Scottish people and supports Scottish independence, but what we have in Wales is mainly English people belonging to an essentially English party.

The evidence for the status of the local Green structure comes from the ‘Wales Green Party’ itself. The party’s candidate in the Uplands by-election in Swansea is Ashley Wakeling (or possibly Ŵakeling) and he made the comment below to my previous post. Now if there is a separate Wales Green Party how the hell is it supposed to operate without a leader? On the other hand, it makes perfect sense if there is no separate Wales Green Party.

Wakeling 'no leader'

The leadership contest referred to, between current leader Pippa Bartolotti and challenger Andy Chyba, will be dealt with later; although I found it odd, and contradictory, that Wakeling should argue that the Greens in Wales need no leader and yet in the same paragraph call for the re-opening of nominatiions!

What became obvious with the many comments made to my previous post is that the ‘Wales Green Party’, perhaps the environmentalist movement more generally, is in a constant state of conflict, riven with personality cults, rival camps and back-biting on a scale I thought had departed with New Labour. Far from being the kind of tension and conflict admired by Harry Lime, from which great things emerge, this appears to be just a bunch of political no-hopers slagging each other off and hampering what little chance there ever was of Green politics having an impact on Wales. I say ‘appears to be’ for there may be more to this than meets the eye.quorate

To bring you up to date, here’s the Green Dragon website report on the Wales Green Party Conference 2014, held last Saturday in Merthyr. I’m referring you to the Green Dragon site because at the time of writing this the official Wales Green Party website hadn’t caught up with its own AGM. According to former Green Anne Greagsby ‘Green Dragon’ is Martyn Shrewsbury of Swansea. Ms Greagsby also alleges that the AGM was not quorate. Another complaining about Green Dragon and the general running of the Green Party in Wales is respected environmentalist Max Wallis. And from other quarters I hear of censorship, stitched-up elections and other practices that suggest the Greens are after the ‘tankie’ vote.

But let us turn to the rivetting leadership contest between Pippa Bartolotti and Andy Chyba. Who are they? Well, it should go without saying that both have come to us from England, though Ms Bartolotti obviously has an Italian surname and claims a Jewish grandfather; whereas Chyba’s ancestry is uncertain.


Pippa Bartolotti is on record as dismissing the Welsh language as belonging to a “regional identity”, before reminding us that there are far more important things to worry about . . . perhaps finding a decent coiffeur. As regards the status of the so-called Wales Green Party she tends toBartolotti 20,000 members give the game away with this entry from her ‘News’ section (click to enlarge). The ‘We’ quite obviously refers to the Green Party of Englandandwales.

As for “the young man from Cardiff”, I have no idea what she had planned for him, I can only hope that he enjoyed it and has now recovered. In fact, the siren-like and Jaguar-driving Ms Bartolotti may have a thing about young men, for in another entry she admits to chatting up a young man on a train! (This spoof website may be of interest.)

The problem many GreenPippa Bartolottis have with Ms Bartolotti is her somewhat ‘hazy’ background, with periods in the security business and years unaccounted for. There may also be a more general question over her honesty. For example, she has claimed to have started companies – Encrypta Electronics being one – yet it was her ex-husband and his father who started both Encrypta (1985) and Enigma (1986). Encrypta had links with the Atomic Weapons Research Establishment at Aldermaston, and one of its sub-contractors was AB Connectors of Abercynon, which might explain why in 1997 she was recruited on a part-time basis by the Welsh Development Agency. In 2004 she is said to have represented Encrypta at a security conference in Las Vegas. Among those present was a Lt. Col. Oliver North of Iran-Contra fame.

But, then, for no apparent reason, she gave up the life of business to go on a world tour . . . though where exactly she went, who she met, and what she did, is another source of mystery. According to the Swansea Action for Palestine website Ms Bartolotti lived in Israel for 7 years, which might make sense, given her Jewish grandfather. Though elsewhere she claims to have spent time in India, Cuba and other places which would have made it impossible for her to have spent all seven of her years away in Israel. But anyway, let’s stick with Israel. Here’s a link to a bizarre bit of film showing her making a fuss at Tel Aviv airport, it’s connected with this escapade. Though some ask why Bartolotti was the only one out a group of 40 people allowed through unmolested by Israeli customs, and whether realising her isolation made her cause the scene.

Let’s end on a lighter note. Here’s a link to Come Dine with Me starring the irrepressible Ms Bartolotti. (To view this gem you may need a 4oD player installed.) Shalom!


Now we turn to Andy Chyba, who was to have been the Green’s lead candidate in Wales for the May European elections. Then he withdrew and urged Greens to support Plaid Cymru! Despite this support for Plaid Cymru Chyba regards Welsh as a “moribundChyba resigns language” and in his resignation piece repeats that he has “no time for the Welsh language”!Andy Chyba

I urge you to read Chyba’s resignation piece, for in it he also admits that he does not want to see an ‘autonomous’ Green party in Wales (as exists in Scotland and Northern Ireland) while conceding that the current set-up of the GPE in Wales is never going to take off. It all sounds very confused, or confusing.

These thoughts were in my mind when I received a Facebook message today from someone offering more information on Chyba. (Addressed to ‘Mr North’!) Suggesting, specifically, that Chyba has a background in the military or the police, and may be operating as a spy. Whether or not there is any truth in these allegations, I still find it intriguing that Chyba’s Wikipedia page was pulled last Friday, when my previous post was receiving so many hits and comments from Greens.


So we have two contenders for the leadership of something calling itself the Green Party of Wales that is in reality nothing but a regional branch of the Green Party of Englandandwales and both are accused of being tools of the security services. With the accusations against Chyba being perhaps nothing more than retaliation on the part of Bartolotti’s supporters for the aspersions cast against their gal. Should we give these allegations any credence? I think so. Let us consider the bigger picture, from a different perspective.

As I have remarked in a number of recent posts, in the eyes of an increasing number of people Westminster politics is discredited, with voters looking for alternatives to the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats. In Scotland there is an obvious alternative to the Westminster bawbags in the form of the SNP, which threatens to wipe out Labour, the only party that can maintain the Union. South of the border many in England (and quite a few in Wales) are turning to Ukip. The publicity achieved by the SNP and Ukip can sometimes make us overlook the Greens, who already have one MP and could have a couple more after next year’s General Election.

Alex Salmond has said that he may stand for Westminster next year, and he has already posited the scenario in which the SNP and its allies hold the balance of power. So who will be the SNP’s allies? Well, Plaid Cymru, obviously, but also the Greens. Which makes the Greens of increasing interest to the security services. And how better to gain entry to the higher councils of a party with perhaps 20,000 members than by controlling the leadership election of a ramshackle branch with just a few hundred members, many of whom – as a result of carefully engineered schisms – are disbarred or discouraged from voting? It’s what I’d do if I was a spook. Always go for the weakest link to provide the entry point.

Green Party status

Plaid Cymru would be mad to go into any electoral pact with the Green Party of Englandandwales, either nationally or on a constituency by constituency basis. There is nothing in such a pact for Plaid Cymru because the Greens have nothing to offer, and when views like Bartolotti’s and Chyba’s on the Welsh language become known they can only lose Plaid Cymru votes. Worse, if some of the allegations levelled are correct, then there may be more to Bartolotti and / or Chyba than meets the eye. Even if both are ‘clean’, there is still the worry that there are those who realise the Green brand is not selling in Wales, and now view Plaid Cymru as the best stall from which to promote their wares. Plaid activists should think long and hard about accepting this trojan horse, and don’t leave the decision to your ‘leaders’. They’ve already let you down too often.

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I didn’t know about that Toucan nuclear connection. Bartolotti was singled out as the only person who got through Israeli customs, picked out and led through the Israeli residents desk? Bartolottis own words on her blog – Arrival at Ben Gurion Airport
“I left the plane, and having only hand luggage, walked slowly to passport control expecting the others to catch me up. Being tall, I am easy to spot so I listened out for my name, however, somehow I appeared to have missed the rest of my party, and so arrived at the passport booths alone. A member of airport staff guided me to the Israeli passport holders booth as the queues for internationals were long and unwieldy. My passport was duly stamped – I changed up some money, bought a nice salad to eat, and before I was halfway through the meal a text came in from the others …” They had been blocked and arrested at password control – How strange is it that Bartolotti gets through some of the toughest security in the world – gets led through Israeli Passport holders desk?
RT talks to only Gaza activist who ‘slipped through net’:
She got detained later as she tried to go back through customs yet continues to insist/lie saying she was arrested trying to enter Bethlehem.


Not strange at all.

It would be common for the domestic intelligence agency to separately intercept a suspect on entering a country and ensure free passage. This gives the opportunity to obtain an up-to-date picture from high definition CCTV, evidenced by entry documentation should the person need to be detained at a later stage or evidence to the suspect has been treated correctly should a foreign consulate enquire, and is part of a typical intelligence gathering operation. If the suspect then comes to the attention of the police while within the country a positive ID can be established, movements to be monitored, and allows swift interception for interrogation at point of exit.

Russia Today is the news agency of the Russian government and have their own political agenda. Their reporters are well aware of, and regularly encounter, this process.


However Bartolotti admits she has visited Israel before she discovered politics with a partner. Her ‘activism’ is very recent, approx 4 years, coinciding with a relationship with a FOE consultant. If you recall she was pictured holding the flag of the Syrian Socialist National Party – a fascist organization


You are wrong to accuse the SSNP as a ‘fascist’ organisation. This accusation stems from their national liberation struggles against the French colonists in the 1930s. Similar accusations are often labelled against those movements of opposition to British colonialism of the time, including Sinn Féin and Plaid Cymru. It should be noted that within SSNP is was also a ‘Marxist’ element which the Soviet Union tried to gain international leverage. Essentially SSNP politics are secular social reformists, nationalists in the form of unification of the arabic fertile crescent. Potty Pippa is now given a very wide berth by such groups, and the only role she can play with Plaid Cymru in Wales, is when she arrives, alone, at Cardiff (Bristol West) Airport she can be filmed kicking the door in to get back into the arrivals lounge.

Uncle Ruckus (No Relation)

Having been born-and-bred in Brighton, I have seen for myself the appalling mess that the Greens have made in attempting to administer the city.

However, I have a lot of time for Green council Leader Jason Kitcat; a decent, honorable man committed to working for the people of Brighton, but is constantly frustrated by the machinations of the hard-Left within Brighton Green Party (Phelim ‘Dirty Boy’ McCafferty, Alexa ‘7 pints a night’ Phillips and Caroline ‘5 Homes’ Lucas)

green dragon

We hear youve taken up photography Anne? 😉 Do you do Weddings?


check this out amazing how much public funding is being thrown at defence/security “innovation ”


Bartolotti to busy to show for tribunal she instigated to prove her allegations she was defamed.

green dragon

Apostrohe’s are clearly the greendragon’s (or should that be greendragons 🙂 ) achilles heel Dave, thankyou for bringing that to our attention. While both Dafis and Carnabwth make very valuable and pertinent observations about UAV’s at Parc Aberporth, and yes Carnabwth we too have heard that figures from the israeli military have been observed at Aberporth’s testing facilities.

Now given the IDF’s shocking recent treatment of palestinians we wonder how many people in Wales – a country where there’s a great deal of solidarity with the palestinians – would be happy if they knew of some of the things going on at Aberporth Parc? When we write on our blog “we are opposed to militarism in all its forms and that we want to see an end to ministry of defence activity in wales, and to the production and manufacture of military equipment and hardware in wales” we were of course referring to disturbing goings on like those at Aberporth. It was also a swipe at things like british SAS ‘war games’ in the brecon beacons. A declaration which we realise will have put us firmly on the british state’s ‘to be watched list’. But we suspect that Welsh blogger’s like Jac have been on that list for some time now, so we would appear to be in good company.

And – in view of Andrew’s call for co-operation beween plaid and the welsh greens – we are very pleased to be able to report that this is an issue on which Plaid and the Wales greens appear to be as one on.


That’s really nice to see. I think the main common ground they have is that they promote a positive, long term vision of the future rather than the blame politics endorsed by UKIP and which all the other parties are falling over themselves to emulate.

But then, the fact that a privately-educated former banker and Tory activist is able to successfully present his party of former Tories, bankrolled almost entirely by a millionaire businessman (and former Tory donor) as an ‘alternative’ and a ‘party of the people’ goes to show what we are up against.

Andrew Winter

In a debate between Leanne Wood and Jeff Cuthbert last night she referred to the SNP and Greens as ‘allies’. She also made the same promise as the SNP have made, that they would never prop up the tories in government.

The speech began with an attack on UKIP before outlining a vision of an independent Wales based around the values of social justice and the idea of Wales being self-sufficient in terms of energy and not being reliant on Westminister handouts. Her Labour counterpart on the other hand, well he may as well have been a Tory the way he was talking (as was rightly heckled by one of our green party candidates).

I really hope the differences between the greens and Plaid can be ironed out and that they can work together because they and the SNP seem to be the only parties offering a progressive alternative to what we have right now.


I’m not sure how it works up in Parc-Aberporth but I’ve heard that the Isrealis and the French ar involved. I’ve also met a number of the contractors who come and stay at a local hotel several times a year. The one’s I’ve met have been ex-military and certainly aren’t local….not even Welsh. Mind you, I know of one local working there…… as a security guard.


sums it up really ……job opportunities !! my arse !! another f***ing Anglo scam and some welsh government twat signed up for it

Dave Jones

“ill informed correspondent’s” and “recent comments from some poster’s”
FYI, the words “correspondents” and “posters” are plurals and require no apostrophe. I may be “ill informed” but able to write correctly. Just like a “grown up.”

green dragon

Dave writes “Are you speaking for everyone now gd?” Trust us we would never be so presumptous Dave. But given the repetitive nature of recent comments from some poster’s it has occured to us this that particular thread may have run its course Jac. But we’ve relished the cut n thrust of debate and the chance to exchange views wth others, yes even with those ill informed correspondent’s too. But all good things must come to an end and its clear that the well has run dry on this one.

Should you need any ideas for further subjects for discussion Jac we’d be very happy to suggest some. Maybe you could turn your microscope on the company who are designing the proposed Wylfa B nuclear reactor? (Hitachii). Who as Wales bad luck would have it just happen to be the same people who designed the faulty nuclear reactor in fukushima. You could even include some direct quotes from Rhun ap Iorwerth, Rhun of course recently enjoying the hospitality of hitachi on a ‘fact finding’ trip to japan, though strangely enough fukushima apparently didnt feature on the itinerary – too much radiation there perhaps?

Or maybe you might like to blog on the disturbing fact that Wales is becoming a world centre for the testing of pilotless military drones – you know the ones that invariably seem to be wiping out wedding guests in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Definitely plenty for you to get your razor sharp teeth into there Jac – or will such genuinely serious issues facing contemporary Wales be left to us at green dragon to cover?


certainly interested in these unmanned aircraft as they were flagged up by the local community in West Wales a few years ago – again 2 sides to the arguement. Some people saw the UAV’s as having “peace time potential” – checking on traffic, spraying crops, even delivering parcels ! and bought into the job creation story , but there were members of the community who saw where the priorities of qinetiq really lay. Now we don’t see direct evidence, but I would not expect it to be that easy, but the hugely predominant use of this type of kit is to check out movement of “the bad guys”, probably having a listening capability, and “weapons delivery” ( MOD speak , not mine ! ) Like most technologies in development these things are not that good on the delivery bit, or the guy on the joystick back at base is a real indiscriminate w***er who doesn’t give a toss where the payload lands. He probably gets rewarded for “collateral damage” if unreported !.

A nasty piece of kit which has totally undermined any residual “moral” case in the “war on terror”.

I have deliberately avoided any reference to any global conspiracy theories in this note as the narrower context is of sufficient concern.

Dave Jones

“as we commented”
Are you speaking for everyone now gd? A tad hubristic wouldn’t you say?

green dragon

Ahem as we commented earlier Dave – leave this discussion to the grown ups.

Dave Jones

So how many of the greens leaders in Wales are from Wales then?

green dragon

Youre not a racist or a fascist Tarian, of that we are in no doubt. But you must see the similarities between some of the language you employ with regards to English people coming to live in Wales and the language ukip and fascist groups like britain first use when talking about immigration.

Yes Dafis we are very sincere in our stated aims for Wales and – as you’ll see from our statement on our blog – we fully support the right of the Welsh people to full self government if that is what they want. And yes absolutely no issue with Jac taking a look at the Wales green party – indeed its something of a compliment when one of Wales leading bloggers (Jac) puts an organisation in Wales under his characteristic forensic analysis.

And while – as we’ve repeatedly made clear – we do not speak for the Wales green party, Jac’s posts have at least allowed the greendragon the opportunity to try to clarify matters with regards to GPW and its policies.

Trust us we’ve no intention of patronising or dumping on anyone in Wales Dafis – we seek to do quite the opposite in fact.



Green dragon, we don’t need any lectures about Dafydd El as an example of anything. We are well familiar with how those long years of exposure to the deviations of Westminster damaged the old boy – turned him into a right old champagne charlie & lost cause. Watching him grab the baubles & take the ermine was classic case study in selling his soul if not his country – what a wa***er ! His aspirations got the better of him, underneath the youthful bravado lurked an inadequate wannabee and when offered the “elevation” he took it hook line & sinker. Any more good gems like that in the story book ? To be fair to Jac he’s gone on about Plaid’s defects for a long time, and only of late has he done a sound review of their stance vis a vis the green sects. It has bought a lot of stuff ( of all colours ! ) to the surface and that has made people think some more. I hope you are sincere in your stated aims for Wales and it will be refreshing to see positive actions flowing from those words. There is plenty of scope for you to out do a lot of those who patronise us and dump their bullshit from all angles of the political spectrum.


Green dragon, surely you are taking the piss accusing me of using fascist language? My argument is anti-colonial, and anti-racist. Try reading what I wrote instead of trying to feebly spin and smear. Half my family are or were incomers and immigrants at one stage or another – there is absolutely no problem here with incomers per se. Your attempts to smear and avoid the issue suggest that you basically endorse a colonial view of Wales. Why don’t you just answer the questions posed?

green dragon

“you’re poisoning the Earth just as much as those who are 100% pro nuclear” writes Dafis – er we know of no renewables that remain poisonous and contaminate the earth for tens of thousands of years in the way that high grade radioactive waste does Dafis. But again you seem at ease with the fact that Wylfa B – and the poisonous waste it will produce – has been imposed on Wales by the British government, as Wylfa B is certainly not needed by us in Wales to meet our energy needs and the decision to commission Wylfa B wasnt made by us in Wales.

Yes we would concur with that you Dave that you are ‘no political animal’ – indeed in view of your most recent ‘contribution’ to this discussion it might be best if you were to leave this debate to the grown ups.

Tarian you must surely see how the language and phraseology you use, with references to “incomers” and statements like “the issue of origins and attitudes is central” is little different from the hateful anti immigrant language used by the likes of ukip and even fascists like britian first – the phrase “the issue of origins and attitudes is central” could have been taken straight from the revolting Britain First’s playbook. Indeed in some of the language you deploy it’s hard to see any substantive difference between people like yourself and the likes of Ukip and Britain First, the difference being while they are fixated with immigration from outside the UK people like yourself appear to be fixated with immigration from England.

Further we at greendragon cant help but wonder if immigration is such a pressing issue in Wales why doesnt there seem to be a single serious political organisation in Wales which reflecs these views and which seeks to act on them? Is it because hardly any one in Wales actually shares such views?

Tarian also writes ” The Greens could solve this easily by forming an Independent Welsh party with a clear committment to independence”. Well for what its worth the view of the Green Dragon is that the Welsh greens should look to follow the example of their Scottish brothers and sisters while – and as weve pointed out previously on this blog – the Wales Green Party supports Wales right to membership of the Eurpean Union and of the United Nations. Again timely to point out that no political party in Wales holds to such views other than Plaid Cymru.

Also worth pointing out that there are individuals in Plaid Cymru who apparently dont support independence for Wales – like Dafydd Ellis Thomas for example. Indeed Jac has often had cause on this blog to question even Plaid Cymru’s committment to independence for Wales.


Green Dragon – your hopeless flapping around and evasion do you no favours, and your attempt to smear posters with accusations of racism is pathetic. Place of birth in itself is of no consequence to any of us – people are welcome from all over the world providing they actually adopt Wales as their nation, attempt to integrate and stand up for Wales (economically, politically, culturally, linguistically and environmentally). What is not acceptable is people who have an essentially colonialist attitude towards Wales and see it merely as a picturesque extension of England, and are dismissive or contemptuous towards the Welsh, their language, culture and their dire economic situation. Given that the largest immigrant group in Wales is the English, given the cultural (inc. media), economic and political dominance of England and given its proximity to Wales – the issue of origins and attitudes is central.

Do these people have Wales’ best interests at heart or do they wish to perpetuate the subordination of Wales, its people and resources to England/Westminster?

Do they recognise the importance of protecting and advancing the cultural and political elements that mark us out as a nation, or do they wish to continue the appalling and discredited EnglandandWales set-up (which is essentially assimilation and anglicisation)?

Do they intend to represent the people of Wales? The problem with many of these green and third sector groups that Jac has discussed is that they are often a mirror image of the golf club UKIP set. Left or right they create their own little niche in their new home, have little contact with the locals and nurture rather unsavoury attitudes towards them.

Don’t assume that there is some reflexive hostility to the English here. Everyone who posts here will have many examples of incomers who have made Wales their home, worked to fit in and have worked hard to improve their area. Unfortunately we have also seen many more examples of unbridled contempt towards anything that suggests that Wales is different to England.

The Greens could solve this easily by forming an Independent Welsh party with a clear committment to independence and to enhance the nations prospects economically, politically, culturally etc. If they choose not to, no amount of spin will hide the fact that they are simply another unionist rabble who view Wales as an asset to exploit.

Dave Jones

I’m not a political animal but this green dragon bloke is, I think, a bit of a nob.

Political Tourist

Thank feck i live in Scotland.


you have plenty of reason to be grateful as there seems to be far greater momentum towards a healthy state of independence. You’ll get there once those “promises” are demonstrated as empty cheap shots designed to mislead


The SNP have vowed (possibly the wrong word) to (1) Never support the Tories at Westminster, and (2) to continue to oppose Trident and nukes in general. The first should remove any temptation for former Labour voters to backslide, since the “Vote SNP = get Tory” mantra will no longer wash. The second should keep Greens and similar on board. And you know what, I think they’ll actually keep their word. The membership figure is still rising, I’d expected it to have levelled off, but no, it’s over 90,000 now. So again, the question remains of who or what can shift the dead hand of Labour in Wales?

green dragon

Er no Dafis if you read our comment correctly you’ll see that it demonstrates the absurd and somewhat disturbing nature of questions which always seem more preoccupied with someone’s place of birth than anything else. While to follow your ‘logic’ would mean that none of those rugby players we named would be be able to represent Wales. Now if that is what really you think please ‘come out’ and tell us – no more prevarication or evasion please!

Speaking of evasion we note still no reply from you on the question of where in Wales to dump the high grade radioactive that wil be produced at the Wylfa B nuclear reactor you support.

As for your comment about cutting and ‘cloth’ well just who is it on this thread who seems to be echoing UKIP’s fixation on a person’s place of origins? It is certainly not us at greendragon.

Yes Carnabwth we at greendragon are huge admirers of Noam Chomsky – here’s another quote from him you might enjoy


green dragon, stop twitching & twisting. People who integrate are welcome but those who seek to impose Anglo Brit “values” and orientation arouse responses ranging from suspicion to outright hostility. On that scale UKIP and many of the green sects are hitting high scores for obvious reasons, so paste your UKIP racist label on yourself – perhaps you just can’t tolerate a Pacific Islander, or other national, adopting Welsh identity ( or any other nationality of his/her choice ) rather than falling in line with your Anglo/Brit view of the world. Missionaries are not fashionable any more – anywhere.

A dump for nuclear waste ? well it will have to be disposed of as safely as possible that’s about as much as I can say. No doubt there are experts out there who will be able to offer a solution but it must not be abused to become a “safe house” for the UK’s total output of waste. Given the present state of the technology that is good reason for avoiding the over reliance which was part of my original comment which you obviously read selectively. In due course a different nuclear process will be developed which will serve energy needs but maybe useless for weapons purposes. Worth striving for, eh ?

However, whatever transpires, it will have to be part of a balanced mixed technology response, where attention will also have to be paid to the crooks who have created the wind farm exploitation scam ( greens in on that one ? ) which is particularly bad in UK ( don’t know enough about EU structures, but if large corporates are in on it then it’s probably dodgy ) Read yesterday about the huge tonnage of stone that will get shifted about to support a proposed mega wind farm in Scotland, disrupting natural bogs and other lands which have done millenia of solid service in mitigating Carbon imbalances. Yet this is a technology that has blessing of green gospel.

Wake up , you’re poisoning the Earth just as much as those who are 100% pro nuclear just going about it in a different way.


some further thoughts on the above issues. Perhaps we can move this energy debate forward positively by applying pressure and support where needed so that appropriate funding/investment can be devoted to the diverse range of potential sources of energy, as well as getting some kind of messages across that unbridled useage is not a responsible form of liberty !
I was a fan of wind power when its scale was much smaller because I saw it as a localised solution and I would be supportive it it reverted to that stance especially as the efficiency could be ramped up by better engineering available today. However when you add on the potential of other streams of power, mostly kinetic & non toxic/polluting, there is huge scope for reducing reliance on Wylfa type installations. Push come to shove I would buy in to series of off- shore submerged turbines ( need some further development to reduce maintenance costs ) and more intensive use of photovoltaics on buildings, horizontal wind turbines on top of any high rise buildings, localised hydro power ( no need for dams just gradients ) etc etc

This approach would need a major drive to shift inert ruling political classes away from grant driven incentivization on the current scale, as it is frankly corrupt and favours major corporates who pay accountants and assorted spivs to write up “sexy” proposal docs, yet fail to deliver the “goods” . There is loads of relevant intellectual property in local universities and ideas in the heads of local communities waiting to be tapped and shaped into coherent workable solutions. I am not an engineer but have contact with numerous people who could drive these solutions successfully if given a chance. Right now they don’t get a look in because vested interests are shutting down any competitive ideas or stalling them until their grant pool is drained.

Dave Jones

“Dave Jones given that a person’s place of birth is an apparent fixation of yours”
I don’t give a toss about rugby and I’m not that interested in politics, to be honest. I was just wondering if any of the greens leaders in Wales are from Wales. They are pretty vocal in my neck of the woods but I have yet to meet one from my home town, county or from Wales. As for “twisted logic “, calm down mate it’s only a question. Peace.


For some of our less enlightened ‘green’ friends:

‘Losing a lanugage is like losing a species’ …..Noam Chomsky 2014

green dragon

Hope this news doesnt leave you feeing too left out Jac but it would appear that we at greendragon are also being ‘followed’ by Ukip Uk. Given the nature of our blog content and of our postings here we are sure such a development cant be because ‘Ukip Uk’ feels any kinship with the greendragon, which leaves only one other reason why they should be following us? They obviously wish to keep a beady right wing eye on the greendragon….and on other posters here to by the looks of it.

But far from being concerned at the discovery that we have become the recipients of the attentions of the British right – and no doubt far right too – we at greendragon regard it as a compliment that they shoud seek to monitor our output in this way. And we would urge anyone else here who attracts the attentions of organisations like Ukip Uk’ to treat this dubious ‘honour’ in the same vein.


not surprising given that you are more similar than you care to admit – “cut from the same cloth” is the old Anglo saying ?

Your comment about rugby players shows how anti Welsh you are – you just don’t get it that some people can adapt to the culture and identity, while others just enjoy the colonising process and spout down at the natives. The vast majority of your actions to date have a solid Anglo/Brit aspect to them and any acknowledgement of the local context is coincidental, a matter of convenience. You are obviously touchy as hell about your “leadership” but she is about as relevant to the needs of Wales as those 1970’s TV shows with which you seem to be so intimately familiar.

green dragon

Dave Jones gven that a person’s place of birth is an apparent fixation of yours – and of one or two others around here it seems – here’s a little quiz for you. See if you can guess which of the following members of the Wales national rugby team were not born in Wales?, Alex Cuthbert, Jonathan Davies, George North, Dan Lydiate, Toby Faletau, jake ball and luke charteris. I think the answers to our little quiz – always assumuing you know the answers – demonstrates the somewhat dubious nature of your question. But just out of interest do you intend not supporting Wales against the All Blacks on saturday because half the team werent born in Wales? As the twisted logic behind your question suggests you wont be shouting for the men in red on saturday.

Dafis the only ‘dark corners’ we at greendragon are concerned with right now are those dark and maybe not so dark corners of Wales where high grade radioactive waste from Wylfa B will be dumped. Still no answer from you on your preferred choice of location for the said radioactive waste we note.

Think youve been watching too many reruns of Are You Being Served dafis. Doubtless you found your distasteful quip uproariously funny but trust us such ‘humour’ ‘belongs firmly to another era – check out the show ‘It was Alright in the 1970s’ currently being run on channel 4 and you’ll know what we mean, on second thoughts you probably wont.

Anne have you challenged leanne on her and plaid’s strong support for the decriminalistion of cannbis yet? If not why not ? is not like you to hold back

Perhaps you could raise it with her at the next meeting of the plaid national council, which youre apparently a member off? That is of course if you haven been booted off the national council for repeatedly expressing anti english sentiments?


Hello Jac

I think someone is taking the piss here. I’m getting unsolicited “shit mail” from that infamous Anglo neo nazi party. Must have seen me in a brown shirt last week, or maybe a referred lead from one of the Green sects ( some of them are far out if not far right !.)

From: Disqus
To: …………
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 4:41 PM
Subject: Vote UKIP is now following you on Disqus


Hi Davies,

You have a new follower on Disqus.


The United Kingdom Needs You.

Follow Vote UKIP


The Disqus team

Welsh not British (@welshnotbritish)

More pearls from Pippa.

“I just had the official membership figures in, and Wales is the highest performing region in EWGP at 121.56%. Well done everyone!”

She might as well have tweeted “you’re just a bus stop in Bristol”.

Welsh not British (@welshnotbritish)

Dai, it’s not from UKIP it’s just a notification saying someone with that name followed you. I had one too and they have subsequently been deleted by Disqus, presumably for going on a mass following spree in order to spam people. For more info see here


only obliquely related to the subject matter, but that funny photo above prompts me to ask – Is Pippa for real ? or is it a drag artist done up to appeal to a particular & peculiar taste ( probably endemic among public school educated types a.k.a Tory squirearchy! ) . Can any of the green correspondents cast light into a dark corner ? or is it a place they don’t wish to explore too closely !

Anne Greagsby

Green dragon cowards refuse to answer the question I asked earlier Why does Dr Max Wallis have to go to London for a tribunal ….with all English members of the green party of Eng and Wales Regional Councill on an entirely Wales matter?

Dear Max,
I am writing to inform you that I shall be chairing the Disciplinary Tribunal to be held at party office on 27th November to assess allegations made against you. The other members of the panel are Alan Francis and John Whitelegg.
I would be most grateful if you could let me know – preferably this week – if you intend to bring any witnesses with you to speak on your behalf. Thank you for your co-operation and we look forward to meeting you on 27th at 11am.
Best wishes, Susan

Councillor Susan Murray, Green Party, Castle ward
16 Clare Road Lewes East Sussex BN7 1PN

1. Alan Frances from Milton Keynes
2. John Whitelegg South Shropshire Green Party
3. Councillor Susan Murray, Green Party, Castle ward 16 Clare Road Lewes East Sussex BN7 1PN

From: Max Wallis
Sent: 19 November 2014 17:50
To: Susan Murray
Subject: Re: Disciplinary Tribunal 27th November

​Dear Susan,
Thank you for introducing your Tribunal/panel members to me.
However, I see from the Standing Orders sent by Mike Shone that the Tribunal was to take control of the process earlier. Section 8.1 says the Tribunal members shall arrange a date and venue for the Tribunal convenient for Plaintiff and Defendant. The date arranged with us by Mike was fine, but I was not consulted about the venue – London is not ‘convenient’ for me. A venue in the Cardiff or Newport area would meet the criterion; I’d be ready to travel further but both are good for rail access by your Panel.

Watch out for a new blog soon with all the gory details of the tribunal
Pippa Bartolotti called for the expulsion of a member for
“Interfering with the internal democratic process of the Wales Green Party through posting defamatory disinformation about one of the Euro candidates in the May 2013 WGP Members Newsletter at the time that voting on the European candidate selection procedure was in progress.” but shes too busy to attend the tribunal..

Andrew Winter

Thankyou Jac for this interesting insight into the inner workings of the Wales Green Party.

I’m a fairly recent member (in fact I was hoping to have been the ‘young man from Cardiff’ Pippa referred to but, alas, I joined a week or so after that comment)! I’m originally from England – having moved here to study I’ve now lived and worked here about 10 years. In the previous general election I voted Lib Dem.

The reason I’m telling you this is that I – or people like me – am what the Greens have to offer Plaid.

I understand some would see the opposite and consider me part of the problem, but I think the situation is a little more complex than that. I have encountered more Welsh people than English who have told me I’m ‘wasting my time’ with my efforts to learn Welsh, and a great many who have complained at having their time wasted having to learn it at school. Not only that but a number of my Welsh friends have taken their skills to other parts of the UK, and I know others who have moved from their valleys hometowns to live in the more cosmopolitan city. I understand these are anecdotal examples, but at least in my own experience the simplistic ‘English colonialism’ narrative doesn’t really wash with me. If anything I think it distracts from the real ‘enemies’, many of which are shared as can be seen by the areas of policy overlap between Plaid and the Greens.

The fact is, Wales has a pretty fluid population, especially in areas with high student-density. Also there are a great number of people, like myself, with feet on both sides of the border. There are people who have chosen to make Wales their home – embracing its culture and raising children who consider themselves Welsh – yet don’t quite feel as though they are ‘eligible’ to vote for Plaid. And it’s not just the language thing – many are put off by the politics of nationalism in any form and see it as more of a threat to the way they live their lives than any perceived threat from outside. That’s not to say that nationalism doesn’t have a place culturally, just not politically.

Many people both inside and outside Wales are alarmed by the current state of affairs: the Conservatives tearing apart our public services and selling the pieces to their mates, the Westminister-centric focus of the government in general, the rise of UKIP… But who do they vote for? Labour currently have no clear ideological identity and an unelectable leader. The Lib Dems have been all but wiped from the political map. Many are turning to the Greens because they offer the kind of progressive ideas needed in order to turn this descent around.

That’s not to say they are perfect, far from it. Although I would say that the problems with Wales Greens have more to do with its size than anything else, and it certainly isn’t part of some English nationalist conspiracy as you appear to suggest. In a party this size those with the loudest voice are always going to be noticed, and currently it seems as though a lot of those loud voices aren’t even current party members. But it is growing, modestly, but growing, and new members will bring some of these loud voices into check. Certainly the party meetings I have attended don’t reflect the kind of nonsense currently taking place in this comment thread! Not only that but with increased size we can begin to form a more distinct identity from the ‘England and Wales’ model.

I for one have a longer term focus than 2015 and am quite proud to be a part of this.


I understand the subtleties and complexities of society and culture to realise that there are a number of different factors at play here. But I will leave it at that for now in case you wish to elaborate.

Kermit the Dawg


You seem well meaning enough, but your comments just remind me so much of what some of my English friends say, and it’s a fairly superficial understanding. I don’t necessarily blame you for that, because you have what I would call a “BBC News” or a “Guardian” perspective, which is at least better than a “Spectator” perspective.

Firstly, British multiculturalism. I say this not as a UKIPer or any other kind of prejudiced bonehead, but this term really has been ripped to shreds in recent years by people of all sorts of political perspectives. In short, different cultures in British Multiculturalism are placed into a neat little box of “Oh I just love the new Lebanese restaurant down the road” and “Did you see those wonderfully colourful Indian dancers in the main square for last Saturday’s Indian culture week?” etc. It all seems very lovely and fun, but ultimately these differing cultural perspectives are only incorporated into mainstream English (or “British”) culture as long as they in no way challenge the prevailing ideas, language and culture. They’re treated like a nice painting on the wall. Whether or not they SHOULD be incorporated fully is a different matter, and one that I’m sure we’d all have differing views on. But let’s not kid ourselves about how ‘diverse’ mainstream monoglot British culture is, fundamentally speaking.

The experience of Welsh speakers is different, as the language is marginalised and condemned as ‘ethnic’ as opposed to the ‘wonderfully diverse’ and ‘tolerant’ English speaking culture, which ‘celebrates difference’. Bilingualism in its current form is a bit of a sham – it is a burden shouldered only by Welsh speakers, who are bilingual. English speakers are monolingual, and it is Welsh speakers who must change in their presence so as not to ‘exclude’ them. It means that no public events may be conducted in Welsh only, otherwise they are ‘exclusionary’. Welsh speakers in Wales have to learn English, English speakers don’t have to learn Welsh. The result of this is that we get bilingualism when convenient, otherwise monolingualism (English). Many non-Welsh speakers are resentful of having been denied the ability to speak their language by an education system that still favours monolingualism. Demand for Welsh medium education in most parts of anglophone South Wales outpaces demand for English medium education, but when people have tried to do something about this, a small but very noisy and gobby minority of people start crying “racism” and, I kid you not, “ethnic cleansing” (Google it, you’ll find the quotes) and often manage to derail the whole thing.

The Eisteddfod stands out as one of the only events where Welsh is still allowed to be the main language. I meet all sorts there, and loads of English people who have learnt the language as well as Italians, Argentines, Germans etc. Yet it is constantly slammed as being ‘exclusionary’ and ‘exclusive’ and for the ‘Welsh speaking elites’ (what a joke!). Simon Brooks has written a good academic paper about this (in English), which I’m sure you’ll be able to track down if interested.

Is it, therefore, any wonder that many Welsh speakers start to become more comfortable in English? The social dynamics at work are often so subtle that it is only those who make a great effort to read about these things that spot what happens. I certainly never understood any of this until a few years back. This also explains why some Welsh speakers you’ve met think learning it is a ‘waste of time’. But for every one of them, you’ll find somebody who thinks the opposite, so don’t take their word for it just because they happen to be a lapsed Welsh speaker.

Unfortunately, the idea of ‘live and let live’ you speak of just doesn’t reflect reality. Languages are inherently coercive – even walking up to somebody and speaking to them is a form of linguistic coercion, let alone having to read a menu in McDonalds or phone up your local council. By arguing that we shouldn’t force things on people, what’s inadvertently being said is that smaller languages such as Welsh (then Danish? then Norwegian?) should be deprived of all ability to coerce, and we should simply allow the Anglo-American coercive juggernaut to be unfettered in moulding us all in its image, steamrollering over local cultures and cleansing any cultural difference. Let’s not forget how much money is poured into promoting the English language.

If you’re interested in reading more try WIll Kymlicka (Canadian writer on liberal multiculturalism including native minority cultures – quite rare in multicultural writing), Simon Brooks – especially ‘The Racist Nationalist as Bogeyman in Wales’ (a chapter in a book called the Idiom of Dissent), Stephen May (New Zealander – has also written about Welsh) to name but a few. I’m currently reading The Phenomenon of Welshness II by Sion Jobbins, absolutely fascinating read and more journalistic in tone, which also touches on lots of these issues. I hear book number I is good too.

After reading this sort of stuff you’ll probably be able to answer the question of why you “don’t quite feel as though [you] are ‘eligible’ to vote for Plaid” for yourself.

If you learn Welsh, you’ll have access to an even bigger wealth of great works that deal with all of Wales and beyond, not just Welsh speaking people or areas. But that all depends on if you’re willing to put a bit of legwork in to begin with. Say Something in Welsh (podcast) is the easiest way, then go for some pints with some Welsh speakers!

Andrew Winter

I agree with Jac, excellent response. Understand that I am well meaning and of course, from my outside perspective, I won’t fully understand the complexities of the situation. If you look back to my previous post you will see that I am actively learning Welsh. What I guess I failed to mention that for all the people who tell me it’s a ‘waste of time’ there are plenty of others who will tell me the opposite and who enjoy very much bilingual social and cultural lives.

As for culture and multiculturalism, well, perhaps my perspective is selfish as I don’t really get a lot out of mainstream culture and tend to prefer to spend my time amongst the subcultures. And I’m talking less about race and more about the freedom to create our own cultural lives and spaces. Oh and I don’t go near the BBC News, although I will read a Guardian article now and again so you’ve got me there!

Also please don’t interpret my ‘moving forward’ comment as ‘moving on’. All I’m saying is that it’s more constructive now to look at how than why. The fight for the Welsh language isn’t merely against English or ‘the English’ it’s against the internet, mass media, popular culture, marketing and corporations, Welsh people even. The important thing now is to persuade people that speaking Welsh and learning Welsh is important and relevant, and that their social and cultural lives will be enriched in doing so. Either that or you force it on people. Either way it’s a mountainous task!


“I have encountered more Welsh people than English who have told me I’m ‘wasting my time’ with my efforts to learn Welsh, and a great many who have complained at having their time wasted having to learn it at school.”

I can remember a guy from Affrica who gave talks on colonialism saying that it’s not just lands which are colonised but people’s minds too. Above, you have the perfect example of colonised mind-sets still very much prevalent in 21st century Wales. I’m surprised that you aren’t able to see it at work. But I don’t think you’ve yet set yourself free from viewing everything from and English context despite your efforts.


What you see there are people who don’t view Welsh as relevant or necessary for their everyday lives. Whether you agree with that or not is no matter, the point is people have the freedom to make those kind of choices. There are many who don’t agree with that, and who enjoy being part of the two different cultures, Welsh speaking and English speaking. There are further cultural and linguistic nuances depending on where people live or grew up: North or South, Valleys or City, Cardiff or Swansea even! That’s not to say all these different elements can’t unite under the same banner, such as on Saturday afternoon.

Cultural changes nowadays have as much to do with the internet, greater freedom to travel, modern consumer society, celebrity popular culture and greater freedom of individual identity and expression as immigration or Wales’ position within the UK or treatment in the past. The dominant culture is multiculturalism, and its very existence as a concept is proof of the failure of colonialism. Or at least, that we are moving into a post-colonial world.

The point I am trying to make is there are a number of different factors at play, the crucial part of my original statement was the term ‘simplistic’. Absolutely, Wales has been treated in a colonial manner in that its resources and people have been exploited. Absolutely the forcible suppression of the Welsh language in the past was appalling colonial behaviour. But what now, moving forward? How do we persuade people that learning and using Welsh IS important? How do we take power away from Westminister and put decisions into the hands of the people directly affected by them?

I have some more I’d like to say about how and why I think Plaid and the Greens would work well together and it’s a shame that the discussion has been sidetracked by a comment I made which was careless if not a little insensitive. I hope I can persuade you all that, all differences aside, ultimately we are fighting a common enemy: injustice.

Andrew Winter

Well I don’t know that it’ll appear in Christmas crackers any time soon but I totally believe it. I believe in the freedom of the individual to create their own identity and not have it imposed upon them or fall within a set criteria.

That said I guess there have to be some common factors to tie it all together in order for society to function and the main one of these is language. And English is the common language. For that reason not everybody has the same luxury, and those who identify primarily as Welsh speakers find themselves within a subculture. Now we could debate endlessly the reasons and the injustices that have led to this or we can look at how to move forward from it.

My own feeling is the ‘Welsh identity’ is bilingual, and that this makes society all the richer, but maybe I’m not allowed an opinion on such a thing. Perhaps I should have learnt from Andy Chyba that the issue of language is something that I should just leave alone, but then at the same time I think there is always a place for an outsider perspective on things.

Which takes me back to my original point. That I have lived here 10 years and am still an outsider and to some extent always will be. There are issues I will never really fully understand, nor would pretend to. But can you understand why, even if I believe in every single policy Plaid stands for I don’t feel as though I am ‘eligible’ to support them? Can you understand that there are a lot of people who have lived in Wales their whole lives and consider themselves Welsh who feel exactly the same?

Incidentally I’m 30, and I consider comments on the style of what I’m writing instead of the substance to be a compliment. For which I thank you.

Andrew Winter

Points taken Jac, I hold my hands up.

I know you dont care, but the point is that they are perceived as a nationalist party. I actually went to a debate involving Leanne Wood last night – Plaid have some really interesting progressive ideas. I hope they manage to get these out there.

Dave Jones

So gd, are you going to tell us if any of the green leadership in Wales are actually from Wales?

green dragon

For clarifcation Jac and for what its worth the greendragon thinks the Wales green party should give very serious thought to following the course undertaken by their Scottish brothers and sisters, and again for what its worth we know there are WGP members who are in favour of such a move. But ultimately of course this is a decision for the membership of the WGP. We have strong reason to believe however that if the welsh greens could secure a seat on the Welsh Assembly in 2016 that a breakthrough of this magnitude might well hasten such a step. – a step we at greendragon would be vey plesed to see take place.

Er wasnt Amelia Womack born in Newport Anne? And didnt the PCS trade union leader mark serwotka ‘pop over’ to wales from london to speak at a plaid spring conference a couple of years back? But delighted to see you are clearly taking such a keen interest in our blog anne 🙂 Indeed we are positively thrilled at the numbers of visitors we are getting.

R Tyler

I’d still like to know, just out of interest you understand, how many of the leading lights in Wales are from Wales. Are there any?

green dragon

Thankyou for that ‘Justin’, but just to clarify the Wales Green Party is the only autonomous branch of the GPEW. While the following is worth reposting if people are looking for an insight into contemporary Wales green party thinking on Wales “As Wales moves towards sovereignty, we will seek membership of the European Union and the United Nations. Within these institutions, we will promote our vision of a sustainable world”.

Interestingly we’ve never seen anything from the ‘welsh’ labour party or the ‘welsh’ lib dems’ that has a vision for a future Wales which is anything like as positive as the Wales Green Party’s vision just posted manifestly is.

By the way anyone got any answers as to where in Wales they think the high grade radioactive waste that will be produced by Wylfa B should be dumped? Of rather more significance than apparent preoccupations by some with the ‘welshness’ of the Wales green party.

Justin Cresswell

You’re most welcome for that, “green dragon”.

Anne Greagsby

London Centric? green dragon latest blog about London centric Green Party in Wales sections AGM who had guest speaker London boss of Green Party Eng/Wales, the deputy leader Amelia Womack who popped over from London for the morning

Latest eccentric, notorious Chris Were announced as general election candidate for Monmouth read Martin Shiptons article on him. Like you Martyn he has a conviction — for driving without insurance.

More here

there’s that Indy column Unappetising news from Wales where Chris Were deputy leader Wales GreenParty letting standards slip

Strange the Green party in Wales refuses to have a tribunal for expulsion of a Wales member in Wales and insists on London…. unless they are London centric. Do you reckon the complainant Bartolotti will show up to be questioned?

Justin Cresswell

I point you towards article two of the Green Party of England and Wales Constitution, which states;

“2. Geographical Remit and Links

The geographical remit of the party shall be England and Wales.

The party shall maintain links with the autonomous Northern Ireland Green Party, and with the independent Scottish Green Party and Comhaontas Glas (the Green Party of the Irish Republic).”

And then for future revisions, article twenty of said Constitution which states;

“20. Revision of the Constitution

i) The Constitution may be revised by a two thirds majority vote, at an Annual Conference or an Extraordinary Party Conference called by an Annual Conference in a resolution explicitly delegating this power.

ii) The Constitution may also be revised by a two thirds majority vote of the membership through a party-wide ballot. Such a ballot will be initiated by an Annual Conference in a resolution explicitly delegating this power. Such a resolution may only proposed in advance of an Annual Conference through the normal First Agenda process. A simple majority at Conference will be required to pass the motion to initiate the ballot.

iii) No amendment to the Constitution shall be retrospective in nature/effect.

iv) Changes to this constitution take effect at the close of the Conference in which they were agreed. Or for changes that come about via a members’ ballot when the result of that ballot is agreed.”

green dragon

That is a very fair question Marconatrix – and while we do not purport to speak for the Welsh greens any more than we would purport to speak for the green left of Plaid Cymru – our understanding is this matter is being discussed by people in the Wales green party, and envious glances have been cast in the direction of their sister party in Scotland. But just to repeat the members of the WGP elect their own leader and decide the policies of the WGP.

Im sure everyone who has contributed to these discussions hopes you are enjoying your time off Jac, as im sure we all recognise the fact that you are not dutybound to publish any of our comments.

R Tyler

“Blut und Boden is it R Tyler ?”
No, not at all. I’m not making judgments, I’m just honestly interested. It does strike me as odd, however, that the leadership of a political party in Wales is entirely composed of individuals from England.


wind ? big question why so many countries are investing in it . Not really sure, but one thing that is certain it’s been rigged in the UK in favour of money making scammers who are using a defective technology to mess up the country, or are you happy with big corporates building mega turbines up & down the country. Maybe the solution lies with smaller turbines running more frequently, clearly owned by the local communities ( no plc’s, no fat cats ) , because the present configuration is taking us nowhere unless you plan to stop people using energy on anything remotely like the same scale – I’m up for that but most of our middle class neighbours shudder at the thought of coping with anything short of lights on, tv/pc + umpteen appliances running full blast all hours. Think I’m joking then just take note of the light pollution across the country – these people are scared of the dark !!!

Back to the point – we definitely need an array of energy sources, it would be madness to be dependent on any 1 or 2 methods, so maybe you will need to accept a %age of nuclear or get used to shivering. Personally I’d start digging coal again (but that gives rise to some alternative phobias) and crack on with marine turbines, tidal exploitation ( not barrages ) , upland small scale hydro, etc etc . But some s.o.b’s will object to most solutions even when they are blended into a local environment. Can’t win really – unless we get used to wearing more wool, cope with the odd shiver and live a less “dependent” life. Funny how that word keeps cropping up regardless of the context.

green dragon

Genuinely sorry to hear about your son’s condition anne, but that’s quite a lengthy comment youve posted there so going to have to come back you on on this one im afraid. But will say quickly that yes there’s no question that those of us oposed to nuclear power have to make sure that pro nuclear candidates standing in Welsh constituencies dont get a free ride in Wales again.

“highlighting risks of overdependency on Wylfa or anywhere else” comments Dafis. Er yes like what to do wth the high grade radioactive waste that will be produced by wylfa b for example – um which part of Wales would you like to see it buried in incidentally? Also disappointing to see you trotting out all the old fallacies about wind, as if its quite so inefficient why are so many countries investing in it?

Dafis also commented “your sects appear to fall in neatly with that London centred world view”. Clearly dafis youve never read some of the things weve written about leanne Wood and Plaid Cymru, indeed we challenge you to find anything that green dragon has written and blogged about which could be described as ‘london centred’? You will of course lose that challenge, as we know for a fact weve never written anything which meets that ‘description’.

Dafis also comments “it is quite arrogant of you to set yourselves up as “custodians of some set of beliefs”. Again the green dragon has done no such thing. We make no apologies for saying our goal is to help bring about a progressive green and nuclear free Wales but we dont claim this vision of a future Wales is exclusive to us, as weve no doubt that major figures in plaid cymru – like Leanne Wood, Jill Evans and Bethan Jenkins – share that vision too. As of course does the Wales green party. Indeed we are confident that people like Leanne and Jill are much closer to our vision of a future Wales than yours. Yes Leanne is very very keen on renewables – have you ever read her ‘greenprint for the valleys’? Could have been written by the Wales green party.

But yes totally with you on Barnett and on Energy being devolved to Wales.

Blut und Boden is it R Tyler ?


If I may ask a question. If the Greens in Wales are pro-Welsh as they claim, why haven’t they taken a (green?) leaf out of Scotland’s book and set up their own independent Welsh Green Party? The view from Wales is clearly going to be a little different to that from the Home Counties; different priorities, different balances to be struck, a different culture and traditions to dovetail into. Isn’t decentralism central to Green politics, I’m sure it was. How can you expect to speak for Wales as long as you’re tied mentally and administratively to the apron strings of Brighton or wherever?

Anne Greagsby

Cardiff green party covers the whole of the South Wales Central, an electoral region of the National Assembly for Wales, consisting of EIGHT constituencies so they have a record 20 odd people attending their AGM – hardly a WOW! that works out sat about 3 people per constituency that maybe is record breaking for the green party but laughable to other parties.

I oppose Bartolotti irresponsibly telling people that cannabis can cure cancer and epilepsy that may give them false hope or encourage them to smoke cannabis. My son has epilepsy and as a parent Bartolotti silly statements make me cross. Maybe some ingredient in marijuana may prove useful but I we should wait until that is proven before making ludicrous claims. I am not against cannabis being legalised and have never said that. I was at the assembly protesting about the badger cull too.

I am also anti nuclear and will fight tooth and nail to stop high grade radioactive waste being dumped underground in Wales. Not a single green party person stood against Rhun ap Iorwerth, hardly fighting tooth and nail. My partner Dr Max Wallis offered £1,000 to any anti nuclear candidate to stand but the offer wasn’t taken up by anyone.

What really shocked me the most about Pippa Bartolotti is her extreme hypocrisy, apart from driving to the peoples assembly in her jag to give a speech on the devastating impact of climate change – her rant about the poor, her solution to put the poor on vouchers they could only spend in one place and have the armed forces in classrooms.
She put this rant on her COEXIST blog and on her Huffington post blog as green party ‘leader’ and circulated it by email. However, when challenged claimed she had ‘lent’ her Huffington post blog to someone. Although Jac states he is to the right, I doubt if he would go this far?

Here it is – do you agree with this? Pippa Bartolotti rant on the poor
Creating The Generation We Want
Many parents have thrown in the towel. Feral children haunt every neighbourhood. Foul- mouthed and lazy parents are a menace to society, inequality, poor education and meaningless punishment systems are the norm.
Imaginative and progressive solutions are being stifled at birth, and the answers do not lie in history, they lie in a fresh progressive approach which tackles the layers of systemic failure head on, and in parallel. It took 4 people – a white front line social worker, a young black mother working in equalities, a disenfranchised woman caring for her elderly mother and myself – 10 minutes to work through the following solution:
From the age of 2 all children would go to small neighbourhood pre schools at no charge – with no get-out clause for anyone rich or poor. They would get 3 meals a day plus a snack to take home. Parents would then be free to work, the resultant tax income contributing to the cost of extra schooling. If parents chose to fulfil the prophesy of multi generational laziness their benefits would be replaced by vouchers which could only be spent in one place. Training for parents would be available.
Simultaneously, older children missing the initial introduction to greater equality and wider socialisation would be filtered into age groups, and at key teenage years boys and girls would be educated separately to save them from their own hormonal confusion. There would be a progressive and staged education system delivered by hands-on experienced trainers, quite possibly from the armed forces – who are exemplary trainers, but who currently train for the wrong thing – but also from all walks of life.
The emphasis would be on setting boundaries, understanding discipline, being an instrinsic part of the community, and leaning how to learn. Tick boxes would be abolished, practical skills encouraged. Individual assessments would guide young people towards jobs for which they show a natural aptitude. A vast system of apprenticeships would have yearly graduation points where income would increase with performance. Monthly wages could start from 14 years of age where learning would dovetail with employability. Those with a more academic preference and ability would be similarly channelled, but with more emphasis on learning and opportunities for free university places.
Those entrenched in disrespectful and destructive behaviour would be channelled to appropriate terms of ‘boot camp’ style activities, and filtered back into the mainstream system when appropriate. Older children would learn good parenting skills.
The ultimate aim would be to leapfrog ahead of the game, reigning in the tendency for bad and disrespectful behaviour in the current generation, and preventing it in the next. Mopping up bad parenting has to be a crucial step, but overcoming the root causes of our ills is essential. Clamping down brutally on those whose life options are rapidly diminishing is not the answer. Facing up to and taking radical imaginative action toward a progressive and more equal society is.
If society delegates these most important decisions to a government which can only see punishment as the answer to a generation of increasingly disenfranchised young people, then society is failing itself. We need an open and frank debate.

No mention of teaching them Welsh either!

R Tyler

green dragon. Just out of interest, are any of these people from Wales?

green dragon

Not connected to this discussion admittedly but given that a blogger in wales has apparently been blackmailed to take their blog down or face losing their job we thought it important to share it with others in the welsh blogosphere. The blog in question being the swansea based ‘Another Angry Jack’, which in its short life has been rightly critical of the governing local labour party – so no guesses for the likely source of the blackmail.

green dragon

Yes anne we are aware of your track record as an activist, and of your role in opposing the previously mooted military acadamy at st athans – a campaign which we have no hesitation in applauding you for. So do not fall into the trap of thinking that because we might have differences of opinion with you on some matters that we disagree with you on everything.

All we are able to say about the Green party in cardiff at present is that Wales green party deputy leader Anthony Slaughter reported today that the capital city’s branch is enjoying record turnouts at its meetings, such is the interest in the green party in Cardiff.

Your opposition to the legalisation of cannabis is noted but you should be aware that such a policy is not unique in Wales to the green party, as the party on who’s national council you sit – plaid cymru – takes the same view

Carnabwth our criticisms of the ‘dour badger blasting’ elin jones are based on her appalling track record on animal welfare issues – vaccination has actually proved a huge success and very efficient way of dealing with bovine tb. And because of the apparent vindictiveness with which she pursued disciplinary action against plaid member michael hagget, who committed the unpardonable sin of wanting plaid election candidates to actually uphold agreed policy on nuclear power. And judging by the comprehensive nature of her defeat to leanne in the plaid leadership contest it’s clear that a lot of plaid members take a similarly dim view of the NFU’s favourite assembly member.

Dafis we feel we can say without much fear of contradiction that you are someone who would be ill disposed to the Wales green party even if its entire membership could trace its ancestry back 10 gererations in wales. We would guess that you are one of those strange kind of welsh nationalists who is happy with the current state of affairs under which the british government in london can impose a nuclear power station on wales, and there’s virtually nothing we in wales can do to stop it, as energy is not a devolved issue.

The welsh green party is unequivocal in its belief that energy should be devolved to wales – there’s a ‘policy’ for you anne – and its members will fight tooth and nail to stop high grade radioactive waste being dumped underground in Wales – from wylfa b or from elsewhere in the uk, something which the british government at westminister is very keen to do.


Wrong again ! I do not rule out nuclear as part of a broad mix of technologies, and elsewhere one of your factions is correct in highlighting risks of overdependency on Wylfa or anywhere else.
However I object to the frantic wingeing that arises whenever anyone takes steps to diversify our energy resource, the latest being the hostility to photovoltaic panels. Wind farms are a joke, both from an efficiency and environmental viewpoint and do not appear to be operational for much of the time despite prevailing winds. About the only thing that has worked is the largesse system used to foster the activity in the first place.

Investment in other technologies offering huge potential is being denied ( by vested interests ? ) – why aren’t marine turbines further forward in their development, and mini hydro power installations ( a simple piece of kit ) are left largely ignored.

As far as the green politics is concerned it covers matters which are/should be the province of all others so it is quite arrogant of you to set yourselves up as “custodians of some set of beliefs” especially as it appears there is little or no consistentcy as to what those beliefs are. The nationalist debate at the heart of this site differs in that it has often been ignored, supressed, or patronised by the Londoncentric mainstream of politics and your sects appear to fall in neatly with that London centred world view.


I am a strange kind of nationalist – happy to admit to that – but not in the perverse way you attempt to discredit us. Far from content with the London parties’ policies, I am hostile to anything that comes from there because so little of it has any regard for the state we are in. Difficult for you colons to grasp the fundementals of “dependency” but as Leanne finally began to denounce last week, we appear to be kept in a submissive dependency as a matter of policy. The sooner the better we shake off the urge to debate the merits of Barnett and begin to formulate our own ways of digging our way out of the hole we are in. Additionally taking control of energy policy and related industrial development should enable us to stop corporate spivs from converting large tracts of good countryside into the ugliest scenery imaginable. You know that most of those spivs come from beyond clawdd offa and further afield although there are a bunch of usual native suspects who are happy to adopt a servile quisling approach when smelling a bag full of notes ! Similarly taking control of other policy areas would at last enable native interests to be given priority rather than be given a good kicking back & fore between Anglo centred Britnats and the pink Metropolitan tendency. Unfortunately for you, the Green sects at present are found within that spectrum with few if any taking a sincere stand for more radical independent thinking which recognises and respects the Welsh ( and other European “minority” nations )


the more I see, hear and read of this lot I become convinced that Ms Wood & party colleagues should be sectioned if the do any kind of deal with such a fractured dysfunctional mob. Anarchists of the old school were far more cohesive !


I see they are interested inn some kind of arrangement with Plaid Cymru but already the knives are being sharpened to stick into Elin Jones’s back who was by all accounts acting on the advice of the Chief Veterinary Officer of Wales. (Yes, we do have bodies which aren’t EnglandandWales) But that’s another story. Better to leave them argue amongst themselves like ferrets in a sack.

I am going to have to come here more often! Highly entertaining and it is not often you can find out things about yourself you didn’t know.
The “Mr North” feeding you info is, I believe a well known trouble maker with convictions for serious fraud to his name (info from Google, not my establishment inside sources!). He was probably responsible for the Wikipedia page I didn’t know I had either.
It is amazing how much trouble a couple of careless words can cause. I have been constantly apologising unreservedly for my insensitive comments about the Welsh language. I hold my hands up – I got it wrong. It reflected my experience living in and around the Cardiff area and failed to appreciate how differently things are perceived outside that sphere of influence. I needed to get out more, and indeed I am getting around Wales a lot more. It will not happen again and I may even try yo find time to learn a bit more Welsh myself.
Adfyd a ddwg wybodaeth, a gwybodaeth ddoethineb.
Finally, regarding my heritage, my father was Polish. He found himself in England at the end of WWII recuperating after escaping a PoW camp and being picked up by the allies close to death. I suppose technically he was an illegal immigrant. He missed the boat home and remained the rest of his life. His story is part of what motivates me to strive for a better world to live in. The name, Chyba, by the way, can be translated as ‘Maybe’, so there is little gem you can go away and play with.


Look, the lad apologised! How often does a politician, even an wannabe politico, do that? Possibly a suitable case for education? Chwarae teg iddo fo, dyna ddechrau o leia.

green dragon

We are very disappointed to hear that you did not get a good response from local greens in the past Sian, though we suspect that this may be more to do with the fact that until relatively recently the green party in the swansea area remained a quite small group rather than because of any lack of interest in the causes concerned from local greens.

But with the significant increase in Green party membership across Wales, with membership now apparently standing at nearly four figures we would expect in the future such requests for support wil get a better response. Greens in the Swansea / Neath areas are currently very involved in anti fracking campaigns in the area we know.

Er well given you are no longer a Wales green party member Anne Greagsby, and now a member of another political party – apparently sitting on the Plaid Cymru national council
you will obviously not be ‘there’.

Anne G

I have been campaigning for decades, long before I joined the green party and was an elected Councillor for some years unlike your incompetent self. I campaign for greenpeace and I am involved in the anti fracking campaign. I have also managed a few other things in recent years like coordinating the successful campaign against the military academy coming to St Athan for Cynefin y Werin. I will continue to campaign much more successfully out side the green party which does no campaigning in Cardiff at all. Not a single GP member attended a meeting or assisted in any way with the campaign against the incinerator in spite of pleas for assistance, so a similar experience to Sians. I also have a successful blog re Cardiff Council which has suffered lately due to the fact that I fell off my bike and smashed my shoulder and had a major operation to have 11 screws in it.
Odd, the green party in Wales thinking the odd speech and letter re fracking and ‘cannabis curing everything’ is going to impress anyone! I do hope you mange to sus out which are devolved matters eventually and come up with some policies, perhaps Bartolotti could throw the bones for you to assist if you’re not all high as kites!!

Sian Caiach

Considering the huge environmental pollution caused by sewage pollution in the areas of Llanelli and North Gower, requests to the Swansea based Greens over the past decade to help out have not even produced a single reply. As the mainstream political parties were either openly hostile to the subject or inconsistent in their condemnation of the situation, they could have had an ideal opportunity to campaign and recruit in Mid and West Wales over the past decade. Must have been too Welsh for them!
Its a sad day when the UK Government is brought to book by a Llanelli Resident’s Association Chairman and a group of Cockle Gatherers taking a case against gross environmental pollution and habitat destruction to the European Commission, with the England and Wales Greens not even interested.

Anne G

Green Dragon – good to see McCarthyism alive and well in the green party in wales. Dr Max Wallis is to have a tribunal of the green party of England and Wales very soon in London, as they refuse to hold it in Wales, for simply sending out a link in the newsletter a few people didn’t like. Bartolotti will at last have to face questions about her past. Looking forward to that. Will we see you there?

The Earthshaker

Another excellent expose on welsh politics, there’s no doubt the greens in England and Wales are trying to ride on the coattails of the success of the greens in Scotland during the indy referendum and until they piqued your curiosity were going largely under the radar in Wales like UKIP and we all know how that turned out.

Even if it turns out the greens are nothing more sinister than a bunch of egotistical, corrupt shysters, Plaid Cymru would be wise to give them all a wide berth, as adarynefoedd said there’s a whiff of the ‘People’s Front of Judea’ about the them and the welsh nationalist movement doesn’t need more splits. A ray of hope is Leanne Wood does appear to be learning from Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon and is hardening her stance on welsh matters whether that translates into concrete action and policy we shall see.

And as you’re setting the standard for journalism in Wales, you might be interested to know a group of Scots are raising money for a Scottish broadcaster there’s a promo video and lots of details on the link, if only we had a group willing to do this in Wales.


paranoid maybe, but there is ample evidence of security services dirty tricks depts at work in Wales since the 60’s. I made a light hearted comment here recently – A Greagsby reports – “the jag driving woman made her money working in the security industry/Thales/AWRE …………”
say no more , isn’t that a 5star pedigree for agent provocateur material? just shifting her focus from one colonial agenda to another ?.

Perhaps it ain’t such a jokey matter after all ?


Diolch Jac, Come Dine with Me was hilarious – not much danger of the Green party getting anywhere soon I think. Splits and factionalism is at the core of small political parties see ultra left groups in 60s and 70s much of it personality driven. There is danger though, my previously loyal Labour voting husband voted Green in the EU elections. Why? Fed up with Labour, can’t vote PC because of perceived language politics, as you said in a previous post this small block could make a difference in say … Ceredigion, where there will be a close result between PC and the LDs. (not much mention of them here). IMO,PC has chosen a very good candidate who might appeal beyond their previous constituency. Plus I doubt many students will vote LD again as they face their mountain of debt. So the Green vote might be significant for PC. And undoubtedly a significant number of PC MPs will be very helpful in determining the Coalition negotiations.


It’s not a matter of left or right, it’s just a small group thingy. Happens with religious sects etc. too. In a small group its relatively easy for someone to get together enough followers to upset the applecart. But with a big established party that’s scarcely possible. Should the Greens ever become a power in the land (whichever land that may be), then undoubtedly they would become a ‘normal’ stable staid boring party, for good or ill. Not much chance of that for the time being though, and meanwhile PC stews merrily in its own little ghetto of cymreictod. (Dydwi ddim hollol yn erbyn hynny, dych chi’n gweld, ond …)

I don’t know the answer, and it’s probably not my place to suggest any, but just look what’s happened to Scotland, and hopefully be somehow inspired. The indyref has turned out to be a classic Pyrrhic victory, as in “one more win like that and we’re done for”. A whole series of recent polls show that the SNP and Labour have changed places in the race for Westminster seats next year. They may get a little over half the 59 Scottish seats or they may get nearly every one, either way they’ll be a power in the land with the expected hung parliament, and quite probably the third largest party at UK level. Two or three PC MPs would do no harm, but really they’re next to irrelevant (so there could be a stitch-up at Wales’ expense, watch out!) When Scotland leaves the UK, and it really is a question of when not if, then Wales will be left at the mercy of a UKIPified England, which is not a pretty thought. How then to shift the dead weight of ‘Welsh’ Labour, assuming that it’s just another ‘branch office’ like its Scottish twin? Forget the Greens, if anything worthwhile happens they’ll likely come on board anyway. Is Plaid reformable, and if not what to put in its place? Maybe the time is just too short … Scotland is forcing the pace, don’t get left behind.

G Roberts

Andy Chyba
November 9th, 2013

The language issue is always a touchy one and I really must try and stop being so provocative about it. It does however, throw up some interesting conundrums for environmentalists. The amount of paper, ink, added transport costs etc involved in printing so much in two languages is not insignificant in resource terms and carbon footprint terms. Given that I have yet to meet anyone in Wales who cannot read English at least as well as they can read Welsh, and given that less than 20% can read Welsh, it is, at best, very wasteful. … I tend to view languages as purely a tool of communication. I also tend to think the world would actually be a better place if everyone spoke the same language. We would all be able to get on and understand each other so much easier. …
As it happens, I have lived here 22 years, and not once felt disadvantaged by not learning it. I guess that might change if I were ever to join PC! If I were to learn another language, it would probably be Polish – not just because I have Polish relatives, but also because I come across it far more in my daily life these days that I ever come across Welsh. But that is a whole set of other issues!

Gwyn Jones

As I told the Borthlas blog a couple of years ago, like eugenics and later fascism in the 20’s, “Green Politics” is an idea whoose time has come. By its very nature it has to be a totalitarian ideolagy. It is a mistake to think of its members as hippies in teepes. As a member of Plaid (becoming more disillutioned daily) I am not surprised that there is in it a reactionary power mad group who wish to allay itself with them. The sainted Wigley was a fervent supporter of identity cards and the four of them (Elfyn”Mr Toad” Llwyd, the buttock clenshingly embarrasing Ieu Bach v Glennys Kinnock, and the brown bread and sandals Cynnog Dafis) fervently supported the confiscation of our handguns unlike the Northern Ireland MP’s.

I joined Plaid because of “Cymru Rydd”. Since then we have had “Sosialaeth Datganoledig”, “Cymru yn Ewrop” and other spiffing wheezes. No one knows now what it believes in.


green dragon

strewth ….and to think we thought we had good sources in the wales green party jac !! we are still digesting this truly mind bogging post and wont offer any detailed comments at this time. but one observation that we feel we can already make is that it appears clear that your source for the claims listed about pippa bartolotti is the former wales green party member and fierce plaid cymru critic anne greagsby – now a plaid cymru member and fierce wales green party critic! (work that one out) if that is indeed the case jac then you should know that anne greagsby is notorious for making the most bizarre allegations against those who have miffed her in some way, allegations for which there is apparently little if any basis in reality.

we cannot comment on your comments about andy chyba but one observation we feel we can offer is that we think it unlikely that anne greagsby would be the source for this information on him, given that andy and anne greagsby worked closely together when she was a wales green party member and have apparently continued to do so since she was expelled. now of course if it transpires that there is some truth in the information you have posted about andy chyba logic dictates it should perhaps start alarm bells ringing about anne greagsby too?

something for you to digest there jac.