Oct 112017

It has become clear to many of us that eighteen years of devolution have achieved nothing. For by any criterion one wishes to apply Wales is worse off today than she was twenty years ago.

Our country is poorer, our children are less well educated than those of other nations, our health service is at breaking point, and as if that wasn’t bad enough our very identity is under attack from many quarters.

Those of us wishing to both retain Wales’ distinctiveness and make her more prosperous realise that independence is the only way to achieve these ambitions.

But we have no political representation, therefore I believe the time has come to discuss the formation of a new political party.

Such a party should focus on Wales, defending and promoting what benefits Wales and Welsh people, and opposing that which does not. For example . . .

  • Insist on our children being taught the history and traditions of their country in both languages; our young people being given the skills needed to work in the twenty-first century; restore our universities to being centres of the nation’s academic and cultural life rather than alien and grubby places concerned solely with making money.
  • Support native business and enterprise rather than squander money on individuals and companies that turn up in Wales having heard there’s easy money available.
  • Complement an innovative native business sector with an efficient public sector. This combination will largely remove the need for a third sector currently filled with political cronies doing the same work as other political cronies in competing organisations.
  • Seek to end the pernicious influence on Welsh national life of cross-border organisations that treat Wales as a region of England. These must be replaced by Wales-only bodies serving the Welsh national interest.
  • Support the Welsh language, defend individuals and communities using the language, and promote its widest possible use. All the while recognising that in the twenty-first century considerations of Welshness cannot be restricted to the Welsh language alone.
  • Prioritise the needs and interests of Welsh people in employment, housing, education, funding and other areas.

The bullet points I’ve listed above are no more than suggestions from me, because all I’m doing is inviting people to come to a meeting, I plan no role for myself in any new party that might emerge.

The reason I’ve chosen those points should be self-evident, certainly to regular readers of this blog. But I’m also hoping that such a statement will deter people from making a wasted journey on November 4th, because anyone who thinks Wales needs another socialist party, or a bigger third sector, or more Englandandwales organisations, really has nothing to contribute.

I would like to see a party that can ruthlessly expose the shortcomings of the parties currently ruining Wales while coming up with constructive ideas for making Wales a better place for our people. All the while reminding them that only by taking control of their own destiny can they have a country that stands comparison with the rest of Europe and the wider world.

The meeting to discuss the formation of this new party will be held at the Marine Hotel, Aberystwyth on Saturday, November 4th, at 1pm. Anyone interested in discussing the formation of a new party, or simply learning more, is invited to attend.

The lower ground floor room I’ve booked will hold 50 – 60 people plus a table for 6 or 7 speakers facing the audience. (Possibly more at a squeeze.) This room is to the right of the reception desk.

It might be a good idea if people arrive around mid-day and gather in the bar before the meeting begins. Meeting informally beforehand will give us a chance to introduce ourselves and perhaps decide on the best way to run the meeting.

Of course I have no idea how many will turn up, so it would help if you could get in touch to let me know if you plan on coming. And also let me know if you want to speak. I think everyone wishing to speak should be given the opportunity in order to get as wide a range of views as possible, but to avoid the more wordy attendees taking over the meeting I suggest that each speaker be limited to 5 minutes.

Obviously, for a meeting of this nature, there can be no agenda, no minutes from previous meetings, it all starts from scratch. So the first job will perhaps be to choose someone to chair the meeting.

I am not inviting the media but if it is agreed to proceed with forming a new party then those present may wish to issue a statement.

Those attending will be asked to introduce themselves unless they are known to the organisers or someone known to the organisers can vouch for them.

Contributors may speak in Welsh or English as translation facilities will be available.

I look forward to seeing you in Aberystwyth on November 4th


P.S. If you wish to make a financial contribution then please use the PayPal widget on the sidebar or the foot of this post. Make it clear that the donation is for the meeting/new party rather than the blog/wine producers of Argentina.


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I would love to join this party! I was going to go to the YesCymru thing in Cardiff recently but it looked like it was going to be full of white people with dreadlocks and/or purple hair.

Sadly, it’s just too far away for me as I live in Cardiff. I hope there’s a roadshow tour of this new party across Wales soon.


YesCymru is properly non-partisan, despite many members being also members of Plaid Cymru, many are not, I have met a few of them from Cardiff- none have purple hair or dreadlocks. Checking them out is worth your while and doesn’t stop you supporting this new party.


White people with dreadlocks and/or purple hair ?

Jonathan Edwards

What you list as the tasks of the Party are so obvious that one wonders why Plaid don’t do it. What people need to remember is that Plaid made a shift in the 1980s. They ditched Wigley. But really it was wider than that. A thing called National Left set out to take over Plaid and did. So (in an age before the expression became current) any politically incorrect policy, anything other than their take on “Guardian”-left thinking, was banned. But really it went beyond this as well. The Adran y Merched (Womens Section) went on a mission within the mission. Really, as it turned out it was they who took over the party.
That’s what happened.
What is wrong with this? Am I misogynist as well as not left-enough? No. My problem with this is that you are limiting the pool to fewer and fewer people. And if they are power-grabbers and keepers, it gets worse. And it it turns out that they don’t know much about history, or the law of how to get independence, or statecraft, if they only know what they see on “Borgen” then an awful lot of Welsh people are let down.
Take Neil McEvoy. The man is working class and understands at first hand that the working class – most of Wales – might like to aspire to buy/own their own home. And he realises he has to keep up a well-run stock of public housing as well. All perfectly doable. Yet they want him out. Because Plaid has sunk into a black hole of its own making.
But be careful in Aber on 4th. You need to aim at numbers. You will have to decide whether to make common cause with disaffected Plaidos like me, Labour for an Independent Wales, YesCymru. Nearly all these are soft left,not me. When what we need is neither left nor right – just pro- Wales.
Does sound like the 1980s all over again……..
See you on 4th!

Western Welsh

The thing with Plaid is – and I’ve been a member for over 30 years – the members get a huge say in the policies and direction of the party. Stop talking about Plaid as if its some malign force making people do things they don’t want to do. In a democratic party you have debates and people make decisions. None of us get our way on every issue, but we don’t flounce out in a rage as a result… we just get on with supporting the national movement. If you honestly believe you can create a party which pleases all members all of the time and avoids rigorous debate… well, good luck to you. But I know where the real work to advance the national cause is being done and its not with disaffected right-wingers.


So why do Plaid Cymru MPs and AMs champion the building of Wylfa B nuclear power station when it’s party policy to oppose nuclear power? So why is it that Plaid Cymru Llanelli constituency party are not allowed to select a candidate of it’s choice to stand at election and have one imposed upon it? So why is it that Plaid Cymru Cynon Valley constituency party are not allowed to select a candidate of it’s choice to stand at election and have one imposed upon it? So why is it the AM who’s a champion of the party and delivers the best election result in Wales is suspended from the Plaid Cymru group in the Senedd? I don’t see any disaffected right wingers, what I see is disenfranchised left wingers. Plaid Cymru is supposed to be a strong community campaigning organisation, not a top-down elite of Bae apparatchiks dictating to the communities of Wales (left or civic, or right) what they can or cannot do. To be the party of Wales you must be FROM the communities of Wales FOR the communities of Wales.

Nigel Stapley

With you in spirit, butt! My health doesn’t permit much in the way of travelling at present, so I’ll have to miss out on visiting my alma mater (not that that’s likely to be a great loss given what ‘our’ universities have become in the last 30-odd years – and they were bad enough then!).

Donation (hopefully) on its way to help with the costs.

Steve Thomas

Just what our country needs Jac. Although I’m a socialist,I realise that all people need representation in this party and its policies and the direction our country takes after Indy can be left to voters to decide.I can’t be with you there because of ill- health but wish you all good luck


Been thinking about the Welsh language recently. Then it hit me. To ensure the continued existence and growth of our language we need lots of Welsh-speaking men and women to get together and make lots of babies who can grow up and live in the area, and make even more babies, and so on. That’s really it. Government programmes can help, but are quite useless in place of this basic biological fact. All languages are rooted in peoples brains, ears, mouths, families, and communities – not in government institutions.

So the bottom line is economics. Either we have a Welsh economy that supports the growth of indigenous communities, or we continue to go down hill as a dump for England’s surplus retirees and unwanted. This is the central need for Wales – a (relatively) independent and robust economy. That is also what our political classes have no vision of. Reading Plaid Cymru’s manifestos on economics is enough to bring tears to ones eyes.

My central point is that you can have independent constitutional status but it means little if our economy is under the thumb of global finance based on debt-slavery. Solve that problem and everything falls into place – Welsh language, identity and security.

We don’t need more government programmes. We just need a Welsh government that can level the playing field, roll back the suffocating tarmac of the Finance Sector, and let the Welsh economy thrive in a way it hasn’t since the 1380’s.

We need to regulate Finance more, and regulate people less. (And we need effective borders.) Sound good? See you at the Marine Hotel.


On your point about Welsh language… its important any new movement does not get labelled as a Welsh language party as Plaid has… otherwise there’s going to be that same impassible brick wall that they’ve tried to scale for the past… well since their inception. Its got to be everything Plaid is not – the biggest audience in Wales is monoglot Valleyites like myself. I think thats make or break from the start.

A new movement must define being Welsh in a way which includes everyone while gradually pushing bilingualism. That can be done through the education system easily enough.


Agreed. The point I made about promoting the Welsh language equally applies to Wenglish communities – more babies, less incomers – simple demographics really.


Well, there won’t be any translation facilities and no opportunity to speak in our national language, so we can be safe of that.

James Henton

I’m a plaid member, but a group of us were starting and planning to start a party similar to this, so I’m very interested in joining this now and as I’m in Aber uni it’s even better. I’ll definitely be attending.


Hope to be there Jac to learn more {not to speak}. Date in my diary.


Hmm will have to see about logistics. Pretty much the same boat as JD said above. Only I’d have to get to Cardiff first.

Few other things though… Ifans post on nation.cymru. I’d avoid identity defining comments like “centre-right” and “pro-independence”. I think its how Jonathan Edwards said it: “pro-Welsh”. Voice for Wales, all Wales. Issue is that people in Wales will automatically relate that to Toryism (Big C Tory)… because we’ve had generations of being told the right/Tories are the same thing and bad.

Independence… again one of those key words where people have automatic responses. It didn’t work for Plaid. Won’t work for anyone else right of the blocks either. Those of us who see this is the only option know that Westminster will always screw us over. But in being a voice for Wales I think its a case of always making sure that its Westminster making all the wrong moves (much as Puidgemont is doing in Catalunya). So be willing to work with them but letting them make all the mistakes – and they will. Ultimately its not about telling people they want or need independence but showing them its the only way Wales is getting out of poverty.

Language is key. Language is one of the reasons Plaid lets itself down in all theatres. For example “Labour” bashing and not “Unionist parties” bashing is such a missed opportunity. Think i made that point on an article by Neil McEvoy on n.c a few months ago. At the end of the day in the face of Westminster losing power, or separatism they will work together… why wait till they do when you can just make swipes at them being the Left and Right of the same thing.

Chris Williams

The Party, (movement)? will need a name. The language problem is key here. I’ll chuck in Cymru United or maybe Wales United for starters.

Eos Pengwern

Id love to attend on the 4th but for family reasons it may not be practical. I’ve dreamed of this new party for years though, ever since I left Plaid.

I have a suggestion for the name: “Wales at Work / Cymru ar Waith”. We need to emphasise that what Wales needs more that anything else is good quality, well-paid jobs to keep talented people in the country and spread prosperity around: the socialist policies of Labour and Plaid Cymru will never provide these, so that’s why we need a centre-right pro-business party to argue for policies that will.

Red Flag

Needs a name of no more than two words, preferably one, that can be abbreviated and is simple.

Red Flag

I think dropping pro-Welsh in favour of pro-Wales would be better. Inclusivity will be the key. It’s Plaid’s pperceived lack of inclusivity that is killing it outside of it’s heartlands.

Pro-Welsh in the minds of voters automatically excludes the settlers here and insinuates being obsessed with the welsh language whether true or not.

K. A. Mylchreest

Well someone had to do it …
Good luck! 🙂

Dafydd ap Gwilym

It is a pity that JD, you didn’t bother to attend #IndyFest you would have had a totally different opninion (actually, you would have been able to form an opnion if you had attended).
As you may see, I do not had dreadlocks and I do not see what difference it makes if someone has dreadlocks or not, or their style of clothes, colour of their hair or skin.
Okay Jac, is this to do with YesCymru who, I believe, you endorsed back in 2016? Or, is this a new one?
If it is a new one, what are or is the basis for wanting to get behind yet another one so soon?
What do you see as wrong with YesCymru?
What is your stance on Independence or will you be including it later?
I cannot attend the meeting at the moment, but I’d surely love to (if circumstances change I will).
Look forward, as always to your reply.
Diolch Jac.
Dafydd ap Gwilym

Cymru Rydd

I am very interested in this idea and believe it to be long over due.

However, on a point of principle, I will not be attending if no translation is in place.

It would be an absolute betrayal of our essential Welsh values if the launch of a new independence party does not facilitate Welsh language contributions as well.

As a translator by profession, I’ve actually offered to translate at the meeting for free.

I’ve emailed you Jac- but no reply….

Big Gee

Thank you VERY much for your kind offer Cymru Rydd. I also felt a bit queasy about the lack of translation facilities, for the reasons you mentioned, not to mention the fact that knowledge of a non translation set-up would attract ridicule from outside like jam attracts wasps. Everyone attending should be allowed the right to contribute in the language of their choice, but especially so in our own language.

Did you use the contact form on this blog or did you e-mail Jac directly using an e-mail address? I only ask so that I can check if the ‘contact’ module is working correctly.

Cymru Rydd


I contacted Jac on his e-mail address on the site.

Big Gee

Excellent news Jac – I see that you’ve opted for a tap room rather than the more Puritanical venues like halls & vestries that I suggested for you!!!! Only joking. It’s a lovely location with a nice sea view, it will serve our purposes well.

Now for the bad news – I’m away in “Gwlad yr estron” from Oct the 30th to November the 8th. It’s a long planned thing that I can’t dodge or change, and I feel really shitty about it.

Back to the good side of things – I’m immensely encouraged by the ‘new faces’ or maybe I should say the infrequent commentators on here that have responded. That bodes well. Excellent.

I hope to God that the new party, should it be formed, does not fall into the perennial trap of pigeon-holeing itself into a ridiculous ‘Left’, ‘Central’ ground or ‘Right’ wing position at it’s conception. All the readers of this blog know my views on that utterly stupid and contrived abstract mentality, which is so encouraged by the establishment and the media. Those terms should be dumped and the new party should make it abundantly clear that it has no such nonsensical labels. The only label it needs is what it sets out to do. Fight for and gain independence, put Welsh interests first, protect our identity as a nation and preserve that identity that is expressed through our own language and culture, with all it’s variations. No need for any stupid French contrived concept of politics being a thing with positional labels. All that does is fragment public support and causes schisms within, where members continually argue whether others are too ‘left’, ‘centre’ or ‘right’. Labelling also allows the media and other political adversaries/ commentators to take advantage of a label. All it needs to do is keep it’s eye on the ball – what it’s mission, function and purpose is. Call it a Nationalist party – fine – but DON’T get dragged into any positional labelling, and say so to the world at the start of the journey. Positional labelling is a thing of the past, we need to be lateral and modern thinking in our projected image and actions.

Finally, how well is the message for the event going to be broadcast? You don’t want it to go ahead like a fart in the dark, with people later on saying “I didn’t know anything about it”. We need to use social media to it’s maximum potential in making sure that everyone and his dog hears about it. Ears will be pricked up in the media, but they need to be batted away with no interviews or public comments until after the meeting takes place.

Daley Gleephart

Make sure that the event gets plenty of publicity.
Notify the breakfast TV companies and get invited to their Cardiff studios on the day before.
I can picture it:
You on a sofa answering questions, from Twm ap Twp and Sian Moron, such as your choice of colour for Welsh passports.
Nigel Fartsage in London saying what a ‘marvelous success’ he had on his Welsh tour.
Neil Hamilton AM on a beach in the Turks and Caicos saying that all will be fine when he turns Wales a tax haven.


[…] to discuss the possible establishment of a new nationalist political party. Details are available in this post with further reaction from Ifan Morgan Jones […]

Big Gee

There we go, it didn’t take long did it?

Plans have been unveiled for a gathering in Aberystwyth to discuss the formation of a centre-right pro-independence party.

Followed by:

Ideally, they would come from the Conservatives and UKIP. By presenting the arguments for Welsh independence through a right-wing prism, the party could win these people over


. . . could they tarnish the name of Welsh nationalism as a whole, which has fought off (completely unfounded) allegations of fascism for decades?

This is the shit that’s spewed out before you blink, and the meeting hasn’t even taken place yet! Classic ‘Plaidie’ reaction. I’ve been through this routine on at least two other occasions. It’s what you get when you make it easy by labelling yourself “. . . right of centre nationalist perspective” etc. Drop the rubbish FFS!

You make the shit balls for others to throw at you. See how stupid it is to go along with this ‘right’, ‘center’ and ‘left’ wing routine? It REALLY makes my blood boil. You’re either a patriotic nationalist who cares for his people and their country, or something else – who the hell brought the label into the equation?

Someone needs to have a good think before they spout this kind of verbal diarrhoea all over their blog. Disgraceful, unresearched, hypothetical garbage. But sadly it’s this sort of shit that sticks to walls – much to the glee of the common enemy. What a twerp.


Think i agree with you there. We’re all trained to think because we’re working class we’re socialists and on the left… when in reality it may not be the case. I don’t think with politics its as easy as a Cinderella story. The shoe will never fit anyone perfectly – apart from the ones desperate to fill a role for show. Its about letting people here whats being said before some terminology they’re trained to think is bad puts them off.

Big Gee

Spot-on CambroUiDunlainge. A good post. That’s pretty well what I’ve been saying all along, it is a ‘trained’ mentality that serves the purpose of manipulating ‘sheeple’. The concept of ‘right’, ‘centre’ and ‘left’ is a cooked up abstract notion dearly adopted by the establishment and promoted by the media, for obvious reasons. It simply does not exist. If anyone can enlighted me on what ‘centre’ is and what it’s the centre of, then please do so. It has no substance or tangible existence – it describes nothing. Hence I call it an abstract thought embedded in people’s minds.

It is in fact some form of madness, where a situation arises when a party is tagged as good or bad, depending on the actions of other unrelated groups of people in past history. This is ridiculously simple to achieve, give them a label such as ‘left’ or ‘right’ and then prefix that with ‘extreme’, ‘ultra’ or ‘neo’ and they immediately get seen as Communists, Fascists (or in this modern world ‘terrorists sympathisers’) overnight by the public – sometimes before they have even been formed!

This has been clearly demonstrated over the last few days with certain bloggers engaging in a bit of kinked intellectual masturbation.Total madness, based on an abstract concept cooked up by the establishment and promoted by their tools of propaganda, namely the mainstream media outlets. It’s become so rooted in terminology that any political correspondent or commentator can’t get past the second sentence of any presentation before bringing out those magic words ‘right’, ‘centre’ or ‘left’. Pathetic, if it wasn’t so serious it would be laughable.

Personally I detest Tories vehemently, and what they stand for, greedy posh psychopaths from amongst the idle rich (apart of course from the working class, Sun reading Union Jack waving Alf Garnets that gravitate to them). I’m totally at odds with so called Socialists, with their noses in the public purse trough and masquerading as humanitarians whilst they are self serving hypocrites and proliferates of cronyism. I won’t even waste my efforts on the so called modern ‘Progressives’. So where do I stand? Plain and simple, I’m a patriotic Welsh Nationalist of over fifty years standing – end of – no right no left, and certainly no affiliation with the policies of ANY of the London parties.


Ifan Morgan Jones is precisely the type of person you would need to give credibility to this party, but you’re all falling out already, even before the meeting has taken place. This is going to be comedy gold


You try too hard. Adam Price said himself that multiple parties were needed. So are you disagreeing with Adam? Or what?

You think people here take the future of our nation any less seriously? Or is it simply that anything that disagrees with Plaid Cymru’s view of the world could not possibly be any kind of Welsh nationalism?

You are aware Welsh nationalism predates Plaid yes? Its taken on other forms through non-conformism, charterism and others… goes all the way back to Gruffydd ap Cynan returning from exile in Ireland to drive out the Normans. Plaid is a blip in that grand scheme of things. Turn the page and Welsh nationalism takes on another form…


Western Welsh up thread says “The thing with Plaid is – and I’ve been a member for over 30 years – the members get a huge say in the policies and direction of the party. Stop talking about Plaid as if its some malign force making people do things they don’t want to do”

He/she only gives party of the picture here. So, how exactly are the policies and direction of the party decided? I think it’s important for it to be widely known. Shouldn’t it also be discussed at this meeting in Aber? The possibilities of changing Plaid as opposed to setting up a new party? If there’s no possibility of changing Plaid, then at least we can learn what has gone wrong.


There’s nothing wrong with being right-wing. We need conservatism and traditionalism more than ever. Conservatism isn’t evil and it isn’t even a toxic brand anymore.

Being pro-Welsh, pro-Christian and pro-Western doesn’t make you a racist or a fascist. The tide has turned against all this old 60s/70s ‘boomer liberal leftism’. Young people in Wales don’t remember heavy industry and don’t have a strong attachment to the Labour narrative of Welsh history. The modern middle-class leftists of London, Brighton and Bristol are more alien to Wales than the shire Tory.

Welsh people need to be offered a genuine pro-Welsh conservative party otherwise they’ll drift into the arms of far more dangerous Anglo ideologies…

John Bishop

I Quote!

“It has become clear to many of us that eighteen years of devolution have achieved nothing. For by any criterion one wishes to apply Wales is worse off today than she was twenty years ago.
Our country is poorer, our children are less well educated than those of other nations, our health service is at breaking point, and as if that wasn’t bad enough our very identity is under attack from many quarters.
Those of us wishing to both retain Wales’ distinctiveness and make her more prosperous realise that independence is the only way to achieve these ambitions.”

I agree entirely with all these statements.

“But we have no political representation.”

I suspect that most of the native electorate will disagree with this statement. Labour, Libs, PC and even some UKIP Politicians are supportive to some degree of our common aspirations.

“Therefore I believe the time has come to discuss the formation of a new political party. Such a party should focus on Wales, defending and promoting what benefits Wales and Welsh people, and opposing that which does not.”

I always considered you as a Republican and not Centre Right as many who commented assume. Have I been wrong all these years? What would Cosslet say?

“Such a party should focus on Wales, defending and promoting what benefits Wales and Welsh people, and opposing that which does not.

For example . . .
Insist on our children being taught the history and traditions of their country in both languages; our young people being given the skills needed to work in the twenty-first century; restore our universities to being centres of the nation’s academic and cultural life rather than alien and grubby places concerned solely with making money.

Support native business and enterprise rather than squander money on individuals and companies that turn up in Wales having heard there’s easy money available.

Complement an innovative native business sector with an efficient public sector. This combination will largely remove the need for a third sector currently filled with political cronies doing the same work as other political cronies in competing organisations.

Seek to end the pernicious influence on Welsh national life of cross-border organisations that treat Wales as a region of England. These must be replaced by Wales-only bodies serving the Welsh national interest.
Support the Welsh language, defend individuals and communities using the language, and promote its widest possible use. All the while recognising that in the twenty-first century considerations of Welshness cannot be restricted to the Welsh language alone.

Prioritise the needs and interests of Welsh people in employment, housing, education, funding and other areas.”

Nothing I disagree with!

I do however feel that time is running out, as Wales is rapidly being swamped by elderly White Settlers from across the Border who price locals out of the housing market in Rural Areas and put a strain on the NHS and Local Services etc. in all areas. The demographic makeup of Wales is changing. More elderly year by year, and the % born in England also increases.

Scotland is unique as the SNP has managed to obtain the support of the most Scots, and I doubt if a new party could replicate this for many years if ever. Time, we do not have!

Catalonia and the Kurds in both Iraq and Syria have managed to build a consensus of not only different political parties but also different ethnicities.

What Scotland, Catalonia, and South Kurdistan and Rojava to a lesser extent have in common is an army on Twitter, Facebook and Social Media who constantly engage with the public, and present facts and figures that set out information that is not readily available to most and influence the common person directly by counteracting the lies they are fed by the Press and Media.

A new Party will only attract disillusioned members of other parties as they are in the main the only activists, and will be considered persona non-grata and have little influence.

The whole structure in Wales needs changing and change can be brought when the public see the logic and benefit.

For example.

Take the NHS & Social Services. Aneurin Bevan’s vision was “From the Cradle to the Grave.”
What do we have? An Ambulance Service that is failing because the Hospitals cannot find beds for all requiring admittance and they are left in Ambulances for hours.
Hospitals cannot discharge patients because they have closed cottage hospitals and Local Authorities have or are closing Residential Homes and there is not enough capacity.
Social Services and NHS duplicate each other to an extent which is not cost effective.
The answer is to resurrect Aneurin Bevan’s vision and have one Regional Body responsible.

Yes. Local Authorities will object to having their function reduced, and Political Parties will be wary of upsetting the Status Quo but if a reasoned argument was presented to the ordinary voter, they would support it.

The Welsh Assembly needs to build the structures that any Independent State is expected to have.

National Archive, National Library, National Museum and National Gallery. We have at present a National Library that tries to be a Library, Archive, Museum and Art Gallery and is failing dismally on every count. A radical rethink is required!

What we need is a network of individuals of every Political Persuasion who has the interest of Wales at Heart, and who are prepared to engage with every section of Society. Tweeting to Union Leaders including Farming Unions, Councillors, Health Authorities, Businesses etc.

Brexit presents an opportunity to present facts and figures to a wide audience. Not the reduction in GDP or Costs of Brexit in £millions but the effect on every individual Wales in increased Council Rates and Taxes in £ they can understand.

The cost to the Rural Community in unemployment when farmers lose their Area Based Payments and a market for their products.

There are Economists in Wales who could produce these figures, based on various reports already produced by all but HMRG. Yes! They may be members of Political Parties but would want the message distributed as widely as possible, and can be engaged with.

I cannot attend the meeting in Aberystwyth, but would hope that my considered opinion is discussed.

Not a new Party!
A Non-Political Think Tank to suggest answers and change, with an Army to disseminate the ideas as widely as possible.

Gareth E. Williams

The publicity is working, you’ve made “The Eye”.


I hope to join you, it is about time to create an option that is worth supporting



As part of the Welsh diaspora, logistics mean Aber is not an option for me, but I will be with you in spirit, and a donation on its way. to be frank I have never been convinced by the Independence argument, but I am very much “Pro Wales” and having resigned from the Tory party after almost 40 years of membership over the Brexit debacle, I am reviewing my position on an independent Wales.

But for Wales to be successful as an independent country we must break the “socialism is the default option” rule which seems to have been the status quo in Wales for 100+ years, and Wales needs to break away from its economic reliance on the public sector, and its bastard offspring the “Third Sector”, if we cannot build a strong and vibrant private sector in Wales then I’m afraid the future with our without independence, looks very bleak.

History means the Tories in Wales will always struggle, (Winston Churchil, and Mrs T cast long shadows), so a right of center voice without the baggage of the Tories or the lunatics of UKIP is long overdue

Sadly Wales ( especially the Welsh speaking bit) seems to value poets, singers and academics more than entrepreneurs.


taffyman27 – you say that ” Sadly Wales ( especially the Welsh speaking bit) seems to value poets, singers and academics more than entrepreneurs.” That may be true up to a point, but there again as I have said on here on numerous occasions there is a serious lack of real enterpreneural activity in Wales with all sorts of fake enterprise being encouraged by Plaid just as much as the Labour idlers in government. We have all sorts of management courses being rebadged as “postgraduate this and that in Entrepreneurial Studies” as if this inner drive to venture can be taught and grafted into any old donkey that puts his loot (or more likely government grant) down on his local Uni’s enrolement table.
Yet any genuine attempt to get something off the ground gets booed off the park by an assortment of well briefed objectors who know what strings to pull when setting out to undermine perfectly good propositions. To treat the 3rdSector as anything other than Public Sector is a big lie. They exists purely because of public funding and purport to deliver services mandated by current laws and regulations. Accordingly they should be seen as just that and revert to either central or local government ownership and control.


I agree sadly Wales is not an enterprise friendly culture, and those of us (and I include myself in this), who are commercially minded, often take the view that the grass is greener elsewhere. I seem to recall, that when the Times ran its rich list a while back Llais y Sais ran a feature on the richest Welsh people, a remarkable proportion of which made their money almost entirely outside Wales and had not lived in Wales for many years.

Like Scotland and parts of Northern England, I think a big part of the issue in Wales, is that people who would otherwise take a leading role in the economy have either gravitated towards relatively well paid, secure an not stressful public sector work, or have simply left for other more economically attractive locations.

As to the 3rd sector, then by and a large I agree, there are of course some very good not for profit organisations who work across all sorts of sectors with little or no government support, but Wales is awash with dubious and very expensive 3rd sector organisations ( many it would appear run for the benefit of a small number of well connected people), which add nothing to the economy or to the well being of the community they claim serve.



Entrepreneur – Name given to engineers who’ve managed to obtain working capital to exploit an idea or make existing exploitation of existing ideas better.

Fraudster – A person who falsifies being an entrepreneur and in doing so fallen foul of legislation designed to protect individuals or society as a whole.

Wales needs engineers and working capital, not be the spivs or consultants for get-rich-quick schemes whether it comes from across offas dyke, or individuals masquerading as bringing social benefit via the third sector, and fakes designed to divert taxpayers cash into phoenix corporate entities of dubious intent from channels of real social need.

I have a question about Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon….

How much has Swansea University invested in adapting single crystal super-alloy casting technology for turbine blades which can double the efficiency and corrosive longevity of the generating units? Then sell such innovation it to the world.

Technical developments such as this will provide future prosperity and well-being for Wales. Might even help save a steelworks at Port Talbot, put ‘prison’ land at Baglan Bay to productive use, and do to Swansea bay for tidal energy what Boeing developments in the field of the jet turbine did for Seattle.

Why don’t politicians think (or just ask questions) like this?


Didn’t Swansea do something with hydrogen batteries a few years ago as well?


Actually that project was led by Jonathan Williams of the University of Glamorgan (now assimilated as USW and since moved to Cardiff).

In 2008 UniGlam developed a “tribrid” mini-bus. It had a range of 150 miles, a top speed of 55 mph. Part of this project was the hydrogen research centre set up on the Baglan Energy Park. The project was funded by the Welsh Government, when Ieuan Wyn Jones was Economy and Transport Minister. Obviously, since then, things have gone backwards.

Now we have just load of spivs investing in the “student flats bubble”. No investment in high-tech engineering. We’re told the future of the Welsh economy rests with things like a ‘Wellness Village” at Delta Lakes, Llanelli and a ‘city region deal’ as a substitute for the tidal lagoon project.

Incidentally, the technology breakthrough done in Wales nearly ten years ago will used to produce a new version of the Volvo C30 DRIVe Electric Vehicle. It’s a battery powered hybrid with a hydrogen fuel cell which kicks in when the battery has been depleted. To be built in Goteborg, Sweden.

Meanwhile we are told that a new prison on the Baglan site is to be welcomed as “inward investment”. The good people of Port Talbot will be expected to be low pay minions slopping out prisoner cells instead of being high paid technicians building and servicing fuel cells. Also, just up the road in Bridgend, Ford is winding down their engine plant.


Totally agree Dafis. My recent correspondence with Welsh Government and others suggests that the plan is to increase funding to third sector as funding is reduced to public sector. Disastrous policy. Third sector are not held to account by any elected representative of the community. As Jac says, time for a fresh start.

Big Gee

Hence the need for fresh ‘outside of the box’ thinking, with a totally new party and a completely different angle on politics and the future of our country. Starting with the positive argument promoting the need for independence at the top of the agenda, and the binning – for good – of old, outdated labels from the French Revolution of 1789. Labels that are as irrelevant now, and still as ridiculous as they were in the 18th century, when they were created. But they have persisted (with a lot of support and promotion from the media and the establishment) right up to the present. Can anyone tell me if our heroes of old went into battle carrying banners with words such as ‘Chwith’, ‘Canol’ & ‘Dde’ on their flags? No they were just united for a cause.

We aimed at this different and new way of thinking with the creation of a think tank years ago called Grŵp Machynlleth (basically so called because we met periodically at Glyndŵr’s old parliament building in Mach.). The hope was that we could influence all parties with our policies, created from a broad church of members.

Our inaugural meeting was attended by people from all walks of political life (e.g. Glyn Davies MP), Plaid Cymru, Independent Wales Party members & others, with representatives across the board of NGOs like leading members of the Institute of Welsh Affairs, Cymuned, CYIG etc.

It pettered out because some influential members still clung on to their old meaningless labels – instead of moving forward with issues and ideas that reflected a common goal and ultimate benefit for all in Cymru. On the outside we were attacked by those who were suffering hissy fits because of our existence – putting their own personal short term interests before those of the greater many of our nation.

This is the reason why I’m imploring those in attendance on the 4th of November to map out an image of a new party that is not shackled to the lunatic labelling of ‘right’, ‘centre’ or ‘left’.

It should be a cross section of those genuinely concerned about our future and UNITED – with no baggage – for enemies to take advantage of.

From the spontaneous responses from some quarters at this early stage, I am fearful that some are so obsessively locked on to their eyeballs on their own navels, and so steeped in old fashioned, repeating mantras of ‘position’ that they are incapable of breaking out of this lunatic loop of thinking and viewing of things.

I also fear that many are not yet mature enough and too old fashioned to see things in any other way other than the way they have been trained and moulded into seeing things.


Hi, what would be the name of this new party? Welsh National Party would be my choice. Also would it be supporting a Republic or maintaining the monarchy. I’ve always thought Leanne Wood’s ‘Mrs Windsor’ comments were rather childish & off putting to many voters.
Good luck.

Eos Pengwern

I’ve made another suggestion elsewhere, but I think ‘Welsh National Party’ (though perfectly fine in its own right) should be given a wide berth because ignorant and spiteful people are bound to say “ah yes, the Welsh branch of the BNP”.

There’s another discussion going on further up the page about the merits of self-identifying as a ‘right-wing’ party. The problem is that the term ‘right-wing’ has two completely different meanings that don’t even overlap with each other. We need both a name and an attitude that keeps the focus on the economy, rather than necessarily the culture. Don’t get me wrong, the culture is critically important, but if you get the economy right than the culture looks after itself. Hence we need to bang on about being ‘pro business’, ‘small-state’, ‘low tax’ and make sure we have the ammunition to win the arguments.

Simon G F

The economy is the key to Welsh independence, liberty and prosperity – culturally and financially. (When Welsh speaking parents can afford to have lots of babies and create expanding viable communities, the Welsh language will be saved.) People will vote for prosperity over and above ideals. Welsh national aspirations can be a carriage in the train but it will not be successful as the sole locomotive. I’m currently working on a programme to deliver Welsh prosperity and freedom. It’s still “under construction” but there’s no profit in keeping it under wraps methinks. See: wsc.wales

Daley Gleephart

wsc = Welsh Social Credit.
I mentioned the Inca Empire in an earlier post.
The Incas did not use money or any medium of exchange for goods, services, or work.
Gold and silver to the Incas were just pretty metals.
The Inca Code for all people was quite simple: Don’t Steal, Don’t Lie, Don’t Be Lazy.
The Inca cared for the young, old, sick, disabled.
The Inca way of life sounds like a large happy hippy commune but it was far from that.
The penalty for falling foul of the Code was death and the condemned were skinned alive.

I wish you Good Luck in finding an alternative.

Big Gee

Rob – Leanne Woods’ remark calling the queen “Mrs. Windsor” may have smacked of childishness – but at it’s root it made a valid point.

She is NOT my/our queen. The English monarchy is a reflection of our defeated, humbled and humiliated status as a nation.

If the new party even hinted at subservience to an English monarch then you could count me out and invite Dafydd Êl to take over my membership – assuming the meeting on the 4th decides to form a new party. He was at the time Plaud’s resident and formost royal arse licker. Could you imagine Gerry Adams parading the English queen around a Six Counties devolved assembly? The same goes for us I hope. The debate of republic v monarchy is a persona non grata subject as far as I’m concerned.


Is that you condemning the manner of Leanne Wood criticising the Windsors? Or advocating keeping them as our Monarchs?

Leanne is a Republican. So much so that she barely even bothered acknowledging Owain Glyndwr Day. You see.. she leads Plaid Cymru and she is unable to put a national hero in the context of his time. He was elected by his peers in a time when that kind of thing was pretty uncommon outside Maritime Republics – and there was no universal suffrage. His fight contributed to us still being here today… because our resistance towards aggressive colonisation is why we still have a nation to call our own. When some one cannot put their ideals aside to celebrate a national hero like that… quite frankly its an insult to the cause she claims to represent. If using one of our heroes is not central to her winning Wales over (which shes not anyway) then what is?

I’m not a Republican. I can see the value in Constitutional Monarchy by raising the nation above its political divides. We’ve had bad Kings, we’ve had bad Governments. I am however no fan of the English monarchy and if Independence were to occur I’d prefer that tie be severed. In fact I think the Prince of Wales title should be a large point of contention with any new party because quite frankly its an insult. I’d prefer a native monarchy… because at the end of the day I don’t trust the future of our nation solely in the hands of politicians… even if they are my own people. I look at the way Yanks froth over our Royals and the possibility of our own people doing that some day repulses me.

That and Republicanism requires validation through conflict.

Rhys llywelyn.

Because every country is best served by those who live there elected by those who live there.. accountable to those who live there . I’ll be there, I’ll bring a few along as well if possible. Looking forward. This is the direction our country needs to challenge the forever growing two tier voting system “it’s either Europe or Britain”. Hows about a third alternative which should of been the first….. Independence for Wales and only that. Time to unite Wales under one banner. Left or right, the Welsh come first.

Big Gee

Clywch, clywch!

Time to unite Wales under one banner. Left or right, the Welsh come first.


Wales For You – Wales4U / Cymru I Ti – CymruIT

Daley Gleephart

Pro Bono* Wales?
* not Bono from U2.


anything to do with Bono would be seriously dodgy. He’s a real fine example of the class of person that operates within all sorts of tax avoidance/mitigation/dodging regimes yet has the neck to tell us ordinary folk to donate to a range of good causes he chooses for us.


Apologies for hijacking the Comments for something as trivial but does anyone intend staying in Aber on the evening of 4th or are you all heading home?


bit early to talk of an army of occupation ! Don’t occupy, keep moving around. Oh dear been watching too many old documentaries about Vietnam !


I’ve been a reader of this blog for quite some time, without ever bothering to comment. Until now that is. Just thought that I would have my say on this occasion though. Whether you agree or not, this is my take on what I have read.


1. Also, independency. the state or quality of being independent.
2. Freedom from the control, influence, support, aid, or the like, of others.
3. Archaic. a competency.

Interesting is it not ? The definition of what Independence actually means:

Freedom from the control, influence, support, aid, or the like, of others

Yet, if you listen to continued droning of Plaid Cymru (which claims to support Welsh Independence) they will continually tell you that independence will mean that Wales can (and indeed should) carry on as members of the European Union. Indeed, the SNP also claim the same. Yet being part of the European Union is the very antithesis of Independence.

How can Wales possibly be independent AND a member of the EU ?

If members of the EU, then Wales would be subject to the laws laid down in Brussels. In other words, it would be susceptible to the ‘influence’ and ‘control’ of Brussels. Thus, the aim of Plaid Cymru Independence campaigners is therefore to be free of the ‘control’ and ‘influence’ of the London-based UK Parliament, only to subject itself to the ‘control’ and ‘influence’ of the European Parliament. That is NOT independence.

Welsh Labour is no better on that front. Indeed, it would appear that most Labour AMs are very ANTI-Independence.

I have never understood the mindset of the Republic Of Ireland to have gone through so much bloodshed in their history (and especially in the 20th Century) to achieve Independence, only to voluntarily surrender that independence to the corrupt and self-serving politicians that inhabit the European Union buildings in Brussels.

Ever since Wales voted to leave the European Union on 23rd June 2016, my Twitter timeline has been filled with Tweets expressing a growing need for Welsh Independence. Some are claiming it is the only way forward to enable Wales to stay in the European Union, while others are more concerned with the potential of the UK Government making a power grab during the course of Brexit (I follow, and am followed, by a wide range of politicians, journalists and individuals who represent several different political viewpoints). I quite like that I get to see the differing viewpoints from both left, right and centre politics as it enables me to see many different arguments. Of course, it also sometimes means that some ‘heated’ discussions occur when somebody says something with which I vehemently disagree.

So do we need a new centre-right pro-independence party in Wales ?
My answer is Yes, and the following is why I believe this.

I am a Libertarian by nature. I do not believe it is the place of government to push unwarranted interference into people’s lives. I object strongly to government telling me how to live a healthy life, what I should eat or drink, whether I should smoke or not. I particularly rail against Government setting the price of food or alcohol – whether through unfair taxes or minimum price policies, or anything else that we choose to consume. My attitude is to let the market decide. If beer is too expensive, then people will not buy it. Ditto for food and all other consumables. If the product is poor, people will not buy it. If the service is poor, people will not go there. And so on and so forth. It does not need government interference or influence. It is the very definition of what free trade is all about.

Whilst not a particularly political animal, I have always voted in elections – be they local, or national. However, as a Libertarian, and having had first-hand experience of the authoritarian way in which Labour go about their business, I would never vote for Labour. But neither would I vote for Plaid Cymru as they are far too similar in their outlook to Labour. One only has to look at the way that PC continually prop up the extremely poor Welsh Labour party during their (close to) 20 years in power. In the 20 years since the Welsh Assembly was formed, there is little evidence of anything having improved in Wales or having improved the life of people in Wales. Wales as a country is still reliant on handouts – either from the UK Government or from the EU. True entrepreneurs find they have to leave Wales to grow their businesses. Terry Matthews is a prime example of this. He emigrated to Canada to make his fortune and only in later years did he come back to Wales. He is not alone.

While that state of affairs continues, Wales will remain a poor country. A basket case nation reliant of crumbs from the table of the bigger ‘players’.

What Wales needs is to develop its own entrepreneurs, here in Wales. Develop and nurture them so that they keep their companies here, maybe becoming big players on the world markets themselves. In turn, they generate jobs and attract the very best talent to work in them. This attracts companies from other parts of the world to invest here in the vibrant economy to exploit the abundance of high-quality talent that we will have nurtured (and retained) in our own country, rather than having the best talent leave Wales as soon as possible to make their fortunes. This turns Wales from being a low-wages nation, reliant on scraps from the tables of others, to being one that is prosperous and self-sufficient.

Such a vision is never going to happen when Wales is perpetually governed by a socialist government (whether PC or Labour) that has no aspirations and no real ideas. It is a well worn cliché that the only thing socialist governments can do is spend other people’s money. In an Independent Wales, there will be no “other people’s money” to spend. Because an Independent Wales would need to learn to stand on its own two feet from Day 1 and quickly learn to develop and nurture the entrepreneurial spirit that it will need to develop a thriving economy. As most people on the centre-right tend to be capitalists, that is the kind of thinking that will be needed to ensure a truly successful Independent Wales.

Would I like to see an Independent Wales ?
If an Independent Wales looked something like what I have briefly outlined above, then yes I would very much be interested in an Independent Wales. A brave Independent Wales. A vibrant Independent Wales. A prosperous Independent Wales. A forward-looking Independent Wales. A Libertarian Independent Wales. A successful Independent Wales.

Does it need a centre-right Independence party ? Absolutely

Daley Gleephart

The EU, the ECHR and the ECJ have positive laws that protect citizens from the worst aspects of the ‘free market’ and, especially, ‘alt-right’ Tory ideologies.
Your post is, at best, naive and I recommend that you study macro-economics in greater depth.
A good start for you would be reading “23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism” by Ha-Joon Chang.
Ha-Joon’s opinion piece, “Britain: a nation in decay” in the Guardian is interesting too: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/08/britain-economy-long-term-fix

Big Gee

A good post Max, why have you kept your light under a bushel for so long then?

I quite like Libertarianism myself (Latin: libertas, “freedom”) – described as:

A collection of political philosophies and movements that uphold liberty as a core principle. Libertarians seek to maximize political freedom and autonomy, emphasizing freedom of choice, voluntary association, individual judgment and self-ownership“.

In fact I would go so far as to say that the tag would suit the aims of the proposed new party, especially in the context of independence – it actually MEANS something. However, as is often the case with debates of a political nature, everyone jumps on the extreme view. Extreme Libertarianism, extreme Socialism, extreme Capitalism and yes, extreme Nationalism. Everyone wants to progress their own views by portraying the other view in it’s most extreme and negative position.

I personally feel very strongly about social justice – for ALL hence the main reason I oppose Conservatism in it’s form in this country. I think Socialism as expressed by Labour and Plaid Cymru is a recipe for eventual TOTAL disaster. I’m vehemently opposed to capitalism as it’s seen at it’s greedy and selfish worst form in our modern world, (it makes the poor poorer whilst making a tiny few grotesquely rich – and no, contrary to the propaganda expressed by Capitalists, wealth does NOT filter from the top down). Anarchy is not an option, because we’d all be in a bully takes all environment without some organised control (see footnote).

At present we DO have too much control forced upon us in our lives. E.g. I’m of the opinion that I should decide whether I smoke, pickle myself with alcohol or stew my brain with drugs – if I choose to do so, as long as I do not harm others (main plank of Equity Court principles). I, and only I, should have the choice to wear a seatbelt or a crash helmet, or eat what food I consider healthy.

The fact is that all the arguments about these things often revolve around money. And as Jac says in his reply to your post, certain things are actually encouraged out of sight of the public and this behaviour remains unreported, whilst those involved pretend to oppose it in the public’s eyes – in order to make money. Without the revenues collected through the misuse of illegal things we probably wouldn’t even have a NHS. Some even suggest that governments are actually involved in the illegal drugs trade – it’s too good an opportunity to miss, because it’s a huge money-spinner for powerful individuals and organisations within a corrupt system. Legalizing drugs would collapse that revenue stream.

Your view of independence in the EU context is spot-on – despite what the whingeing remainers say, and short sighted, short term benefactors in Nationalist circles, including Ireland and Scotland.

The key to all of this of course is clear thinking (not based on preconceptions and entrenched views) and something which is woefully missing generally in our modern world COMMON SENSE.

Yes, I quite like the thought of a “Libertarian Independence Party” for Cymru!


A court of equity, (equity court or chancery court) is a court that is authorized to apply principles of equity, as opposed to ‘law’, to cases brought before it.

Of all legal powers the most essential to society is a Court of Equity; which may be divided into these basic categories:

1. Dealing with imperfections of common law in protecting citizens from being harmed by others;
2. Protecting the weak of mind from harming themselves or others.
3. Imperfections of common law with respect to the natural duty of benevolence.
4. Imperfections with respect to deeds and covenants.
5. Respect to statues previously set fairly and democratically.
6. Respect to transactions between debtor and creditor.
7. Power of a court of equity to order fair punishment on behalf of the ‘people’.

That’s basically it. No need for any other control freakery through fickle statutes and Government Laws. In fact the Laws of Hywel Dda are an excellent example of fairness within justice, without being overly oppressive.

Daley Gleephart

Yes, Brexit is so good the Department for Exiting the European Union (DExEU) is refusing to publish its studies on the economic impact of leaving the EU. /sarc

This Court of Equity; How would it play out in the field of international trade and international finance? It’s all very well calling for fairness but you need to look at how the major movers and shakers behave to realise that fairness is not in their lexicon.

The people of Wales may take the view that the docks of Barry, Cardiff, Newport and Swansea should be brought back into public ownership (or, at least, owned by a Welsh based company) but I can’t see the private owners of ABP Holdings Ltd looking at it fairly.

Looking to set up a Welsh Bank? Where is the founding capital going to come from?
In 2009, during the turmoil following the collapse of Lehman Bros, something interesting occurred. A new bank was formed and floated on the UK Stock Exchange. The bank is called Aldermore. Take a look at it’s capital assets and where the money came from. Are the shareholders of Aldermore interested in fairness to debtors or are they interested in profits and dividends? Note also, the possible buyout of Aldermore by FirstRand.

Big Gee

I thought this particular post by Jac was to discuss a new party? Why are you obsessively clucking on about Brexit Daley?

It’s becoming painfully obvious that you are approaching the stage where you may need help with this fixation and obsessive behaviour of yours my friend – it is by now getting really tedious for others around you.

My best advice for you – as I’ve previously suggested – is move on, get over it and live with it. It’s happened, and you won’t change it regardless of how much you whinge. Dry your eyes and just settle down to things as they are, we’ve all moved on – haven’t you noticed?

On your comment:

This Court of Equity; How would it play out in the field of international trade and international finance? It’s all very well calling for fairness but you need to look at how the major movers and shakers behave to realise that fairness is not in their lexicon.

The mention of a ‘Court of Equity’ was in the context of Libertarianism. We weren’t discussing ‘international trade and international finance’. It seems you look for any little opening to bring up the subject of Brexit. Frankly I’m not personally interested in your pet subject. It’s out of my hands & yours.

Daley Gleephart

Big Gee: “The fact is that all the arguments about these things often revolve around money.”
Big Gee: “We weren’t discussing ‘international trade and international finance’.”

Big Gee [to me]: “Why are you obsessively clucking on about Brexit Daley?”
Big Gee [to Max]: “Your view of independence in the EU context is spot-on – despite what the whingeing remainers say, and short sighted, short term benefactors in Nationalist circles, including Ireland and Scotland.”

Big Gee

And your point is?


Yes BG, I agree with you. There are extremes of everything, including Libertarianism.

However, my view of Libertarianism is quite simple.

My view is that the individual, given all of the known facts, should be free to decide what he/she decides to put in his/her own body or do with his/her life. Government does not own our bodies, therefore what we do with them is up to us. However, the major problem with anything like alcohol, tobacco or drugs is that if they are made illegal (or prohibitively expensive), then people will resort to buying those things from the black market. The black market does not have to comply with laws or safety regulations, therefore the buyer has no idea of the quality (or safety) of the product they are buying. We see this all the time in regards to drugs when we see rogue batches of drugs suddenly killing several people all at once. It is an increasing problem in alcohol and tobacco consumption too. Millions are spent each year on trying to prevent such illegal activities. It has been going on for generations and has singularly failed to turn the tide. In fact, I would say the authorities have lost that war.

What if such things were legalised ?
Now the public suddenly has access to ‘safe’ supplies of such goods, controlled by H&S Laws, Health regulations etc … whatever, they can now access a product that is as safe as it is possible to make it. Now, the public has knowledge of the dangers posed and can make their own mind up as to whether they choose to use that product or not. That is Libertarianism.

I do not doubt that there would still be illegal sources for such products, and people are free to chance their arm and buy from there if they choose. But the point would be that as much danger has been taken from that market as possible.

Another example is the smoking ban. The smoking ban is very intrusive because it infringes on private property. Whatever you may think of a pub (or the smoking ban), the pub premises is very much private property. It just happens to be private property that invites the public in to purchase a product that Joe Public wants – i.e. alcohol. However, the smoking ban took away the ability of the pub trade to decide who they can invite into their private space. Why not let the market decide what it wants to do ?

The answer is that it has already been tried and the results scared the anti-smokers. In 2005, prior to the smoking ban, the Wetherspoons pub chain decided to make all of its bars smoke-free. It was an absolute disaster. Only 5 months later
Wetherspoons reversed that policy as they found they were losing so much money as the smokers deserted them in droves for other locations. Many other licensed premises tried the same and the majority of them reversed the decision. It took the Government enforced smoking ban of 2007 to actually establish smoke-free bars. I still maintain that the smoking ban is one of the single most destructive factors in the decline of the pub industry.

Finally, yes, MONEY is indeed what makes the world go around. However, I would disagree with Jac about the cost of smokers to the NHS. Smokers contribute a huge amount to the treasury through the exhorbitant tax. However, smokers also die younger, so cost far less to the Treasury in terms of Pensions. They also tend to die much wquicker and younger. The fact that people are living longer means that more and more elderly people are taking up hospital beds as they develop naturally occurring age-related illnesses that were a rarity previously. The IEA has calculated that people living longer is costing the treasury (and therefore the NHS) an absolute fortune that far outweighs the costs of smoking and/or drinking. The fact remains, whether we like it or not, that the longer you live, the greater your chance of developing some terminal or debilitating disease that requires huge amounts of healthcare. It is simply unavoidable. Human beings are only supposed to live for a finite period of time. As soon as we start cheating that time, Mother Nature takes action.

Anyway, I have taken this far away from what the original question asked. This blog is not about what Libertarianism is or isn’t, it is about whether Welsh Independence needs a centre-right party. I have already answered that in my original post.

Big Gee

I wouldn’t disagree with anything you’ve written there Max. My view precisely, as I highlighted in my previous comment on the subject.

The principle of Libertarianism is a good one, and it meshes in perfectly with a people’s right to freedom and self determination.

Thank you for sharing your sensible contribution with us.

Big Gee

In the wake of the discussions on here over the last few days, I have been giving a lot of thought to not only the name any new party might adopt, but it’s core values and it’s mission statement, otherwise known as it’s goals. How it should totally divorce itself from traditional labels and narrow nationalistic or other political viewpoints, which are tired, old and quite frankly stale to most people – apart from the most politically ardent. Yet another political party, which turns out to be another flavour of what already exists is doomed to land on the same heap of apathy in the eyes of our citizens as the other parties that they are so tired of already.

Liberty (Liberté in French). The French people overthrew their monarchy, with the cry of “Liberté, égalité, fraternité”. It is, in our times, also closely associated with being able to do anything that does not harm others, so, the exercise of the natural rights of every man or woman has no bounds other than those that guarantee other members of society the enjoyment of these same rights.

We in Cymru do not share the same rights as our centuries old rulers. Whether generally accepted or not, the reality is we are viewed and treated as second class citizens. Whilst we have the freedoms associated with England and it’s citizens, we do not have the same scope for freedom when it comes to our own country and it’s peoples, nor the basic human right to exercise our own values, laws and guidelines uniquely associated with our ancient nation and it’s peoples, it’s various customs, traditions, language, culture or education – both old or new.

Liberty also means freedom, freedom from a yoke. It is especially synonymous with INDEPENDENCE and SELF DETERMINATION. The all too rare luxury of being able to think, speak, act and govern independently of those who rule us, (especially from the viewpoint of a colonised country) is not available to us at present.

In our specific case as a nation there is no need to explain in what context “liberty” is mentioned here – it is from a political point of view. It is about the freeing of our country, and all who dwell within her borders, from enslavement by another.

Our new party should therefore reflect (as freedom) the:

Liberty of self determination;
Liberty of thought;
Liberty of speech;
Liberty to decide what our children are taught;
Liberty to fashion our own economy;
Liberty to access work on all levels;
Liberty to decide on citizenship of our country;
Liberty to manage in migration to OUR country;
Liberty to ensure adequate housing for all;
Liberty to ensure that our own people’s interests always come first.
Liberty to govern ourselves.

And the list can go on indefinitely, but you’ll note the key word. It’s different, it’s fresh it’s motivating. It is a quantum leap from the tired and over subscribed terms like ‘Socialism’, ‘Conservatism’, Liberalism’ and ‘Nationalism’ and God help us – sorry to mention it again – ridiculous terms like ‘right’, ‘centre’ and ‘left’, along with all the extensions that go with them. All we want is LIBERTY.

For these reasons I propose that if it is decided on the 4th of November that a new party is to be established, then it’s name and it’s aims should enshrine ‘Liberty’.

As I am unable to be there due to prior commitments will someone please make this proposal on my behalf?

Nigel Stapley

At the risk of joining in with the near-theological tone of many of the posts (and I do think that the essential point is being missed here; I’ll return to that in a minute, if this bloody wind doesn’t bring my phone wire down first), then I might as well say where I stand.

I regard myself – in economic policy terms – as ‘left of centre’. That does not mean that I buy in to the Statist view which has dominated Labour and Ddy Parti Of Wêls for all these years. I see it as essential to a peaceful and successful society that no-one should have to live in squalor in the midst of plenty, and that the basics of a dignified existence within that society – good education, healthcare, a passably habitable place to live, protection from criminal acts, etc. – should be placed as a charge on all members of that society.

To that end, a successful and equitable economy is needed. If just a fraction of the money spent on bribing companies to come in from outside (who then leave at the first sign of the bribes running out, inevitably leaving a worse mess than before) had been spent instead on encouraging and growing native SMEs, then we would have an economy which would rank with some of Scandinavia’s.

It can’t be left to the market (as Max and one or two others seem to imply), because the market will only work primarily to the advantage of those with the clout already. The argument for ‘Libertarianism’ (which is merely turbo-charged free-marketism) looks very attractive until it is actually applied to real situations featuring real people. I’m reminded of my old sixth-form history tutor, Eric Earnshaw, who – describing Anarchism (but the same caveat applies) – said, “Ah, anarchy! It’s a wonderful idea!…..Unfortunately, people tend to be naughty.”

Anyway, I’ve wandered off the point myself. The thing about any putative new party is that it must put the nation first, above all ideological considerations, and that any means (within the straightjacket of the system, of course; although there may be moments when what is euphemistically called ‘civil disobedience’ might come into play) which promotes and brings nearer the moment of our liberation must be considered, whether (sorry, Big Gee) ‘left’, ‘right’ or ‘centre’ on the current spectrum. After independence, it will be for the people of this land to decide which way to go; but that power will rest with them, and with no-one else, and that is a message which I think an increasing proportion of our fellow citizen-subjects could readily embrace.