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	Comments on: GE2019: runners, riders and early fallers	</title>
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	<description>Wales through the eyes of a cynical patriot</description>
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		<title>
		By: Mike Edwards		</title>
		<link>https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-36247</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Edwards]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://jacothenorth.net/blog/?p=34433#comment-36247</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35377&quot;&gt;L M&lt;/a&gt;.

I take it the investigation has ended without any result.
Long live the Revolution!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35377">L M</a>.</p>
<p>I take it the investigation has ended without any result.<br />
Long live the Revolution!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jac		</title>
		<link>https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35410</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Nov 2019 12:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://jacothenorth.net/blog/?p=34433#comment-35410</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35406&quot;&gt;CapM&lt;/a&gt;.

It should also be remembered that in addition to the institutions - Kirk, Scots Law, education system and banking - Scots played a disproportionate role in building up and running the British empire, whether as soldiers, merchants or diplomats. This all combined to support the &#039;equal partners&#039; argument that undermined any drive for independence.

To which must be added the Irish dimension. For most Scots looked favourably on those they regarded as kith and kin across the water, whose position and status was threatened by Irish nationalism. Unionism good, nationalism bad. This started to unravel in the 1980s, partly due to Margaret Thatcher&#039;s treatment of Scotland and partly due to links with the Unionists and Loyalists of Ireland becoming less attractive due to the Troubles.

As a result, Scottish nationalism and support for the SNP began to rise, a) because it became more difficult to promote the &#039;Union of equals&#039; argument, and b) because the SNP began picking up votes from the previously Labour-voting Catholics of Irish ancestry found in Glasgow and west central Scotland.

Today, even though the SNP has largely stayed out of the Irish debate, and regularly condemned sectarianism, its most vicious and visceral opponents are to be found in the Unionist/Loyalist/Rangers camp which, at election time, usually votes Tory. As a result, and because independence v the Union dominates Scottish politics, Labour has faced a double whammy and a near wipe-out.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35406">CapM</a>.</p>
<p>It should also be remembered that in addition to the institutions &#8211; Kirk, Scots Law, education system and banking &#8211; Scots played a disproportionate role in building up and running the British empire, whether as soldiers, merchants or diplomats. This all combined to support the &#8216;equal partners&#8217; argument that undermined any drive for independence.</p>
<p>To which must be added the Irish dimension. For most Scots looked favourably on those they regarded as kith and kin across the water, whose position and status was threatened by Irish nationalism. Unionism good, nationalism bad. This started to unravel in the 1980s, partly due to Margaret Thatcher&#8217;s treatment of Scotland and partly due to links with the Unionists and Loyalists of Ireland becoming less attractive due to the Troubles.</p>
<p>As a result, Scottish nationalism and support for the SNP began to rise, a) because it became more difficult to promote the &#8216;Union of equals&#8217; argument, and b) because the SNP began picking up votes from the previously Labour-voting Catholics of Irish ancestry found in Glasgow and west central Scotland.</p>
<p>Today, even though the SNP has largely stayed out of the Irish debate, and regularly condemned sectarianism, its most vicious and visceral opponents are to be found in the Unionist/Loyalist/Rangers camp which, at election time, usually votes Tory. As a result, and because independence v the Union dominates Scottish politics, Labour has faced a double whammy and a near wipe-out.</p>
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		<title>
		By: CapM		</title>
		<link>https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35406</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CapM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://jacothenorth.net/blog/?p=34433#comment-35406</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35396&quot;&gt;Brychan&lt;/a&gt;.

The Scots I&#039;ve met with are adamant that Scottish institutions such as legal and educational are superior to England&#039;s.
That they would never give up their banknotes for English ones.
That they are members of the Union because they chose to unite with England to form the UK and not because they were forced or conquered (reinforced at school).

And that even applies to those Scots who are very keen Conservatives and Unionists. 
The Welsh in general have no such sense of superiority as a component of the UK. Not unexpected as we don&#039;t have the institutions or even the banknotes that each day reinforce the feeling that we too are exceptional. (And of course we were conquered).
All the above and other factors make for a more receptive base for independence in Scotland than Cymru

You must have had a different experience of Scotland and Scots than I have.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35396">Brychan</a>.</p>
<p>The Scots I&#8217;ve met with are adamant that Scottish institutions such as legal and educational are superior to England&#8217;s.<br />
That they would never give up their banknotes for English ones.<br />
That they are members of the Union because they chose to unite with England to form the UK and not because they were forced or conquered (reinforced at school).</p>
<p>And that even applies to those Scots who are very keen Conservatives and Unionists.<br />
The Welsh in general have no such sense of superiority as a component of the UK. Not unexpected as we don&#8217;t have the institutions or even the banknotes that each day reinforce the feeling that we too are exceptional. (And of course we were conquered).<br />
All the above and other factors make for a more receptive base for independence in Scotland than Cymru</p>
<p>You must have had a different experience of Scotland and Scots than I have.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brychan		</title>
		<link>https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35396</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brychan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://jacothenorth.net/blog/?p=34433#comment-35396</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35381&quot;&gt;CapM&lt;/a&gt;.

I don’t think that there is a natural propensity for Scotland to be more pro-independence than Wales. The difference is that Scotland has a proactive political movement, so effectively represented by the SNP. In Wales, Plaid Cymru is essentially a barrier to independence playing second fiddle to the Labour Party. Plaid sweeps up pro-independence inertia and dissipates it into side issues, the elected clique just feathering their own nests, grabbing a slice of the Labour pie.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35381">CapM</a>.</p>
<p>I don’t think that there is a natural propensity for Scotland to be more pro-independence than Wales. The difference is that Scotland has a proactive political movement, so effectively represented by the SNP. In Wales, Plaid Cymru is essentially a barrier to independence playing second fiddle to the Labour Party. Plaid sweeps up pro-independence inertia and dissipates it into side issues, the elected clique just feathering their own nests, grabbing a slice of the Labour pie.</p>
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		<title>
		By: CapM		</title>
		<link>https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35381</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CapM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Nov 2019 19:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://jacothenorth.net/blog/?p=34433#comment-35381</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35378&quot;&gt;Jac&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;As for Brexit, the SNP is in tune with Scottish opinion. Plaid Cymru is not in tune with Welsh opinion.&quot;

Or consider two sides of the coin-
The Scots are pro EU because they are significantly pro Scottish independence.
In contrast the Welsh are anti EU because we are significantly anti Welsh independence.

Also a result of the greater confidence Scots have in their ability to hold their own as a member of the EU Just as the Rep of Ireland has shown everyone they can. 
A lot of anti EU sentiment in Cymru is based on thinking we can&#039;t cope and so must hold onto Mummy England&#039;s apron and go where Mummy goes.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35378">Jac</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;As for Brexit, the SNP is in tune with Scottish opinion. Plaid Cymru is not in tune with Welsh opinion.&#8221;</p>
<p>Or consider two sides of the coin-<br />
The Scots are pro EU because they are significantly pro Scottish independence.<br />
In contrast the Welsh are anti EU because we are significantly anti Welsh independence.</p>
<p>Also a result of the greater confidence Scots have in their ability to hold their own as a member of the EU Just as the Rep of Ireland has shown everyone they can.<br />
A lot of anti EU sentiment in Cymru is based on thinking we can&#8217;t cope and so must hold onto Mummy England&#8217;s apron and go where Mummy goes.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Smith		</title>
		<link>https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35380</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Nov 2019 18:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://jacothenorth.net/blog/?p=34433#comment-35380</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35331&quot;&gt;Mel Morgan&lt;/a&gt;.

I&#039;ve been to plenty of them, and I know what I&#039;ve seen on the ground. Notice that I didn&#039;t offer any judgment on whether this is in itself a good or a bad thing, and yet you still jump to imply bigotry and xenophobia. Congratulations, you just proved my point.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35331">Mel Morgan</a>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been to plenty of them, and I know what I&#8217;ve seen on the ground. Notice that I didn&#8217;t offer any judgment on whether this is in itself a good or a bad thing, and yet you still jump to imply bigotry and xenophobia. Congratulations, you just proved my point.</p>
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		<title>
		By: D		</title>
		<link>https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35379</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Nov 2019 17:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://jacothenorth.net/blog/?p=34433#comment-35379</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35375&quot;&gt;Dafis&lt;/a&gt;.

Maybe he can sit opposite parents of the children who were killed or suffered abuse due to public servant neglect. His office has covered up so much. Yet he sits there with his pen and book and rictus grin like a politician at a grant giving ceremony.

He has failed so many people and covered public servants and Labours asre like a true colonial whilst the citizens have to do with poor and failing public services which is continuing.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35375">Dafis</a>.</p>
<p>Maybe he can sit opposite parents of the children who were killed or suffered abuse due to public servant neglect. His office has covered up so much. Yet he sits there with his pen and book and rictus grin like a politician at a grant giving ceremony.</p>
<p>He has failed so many people and covered public servants and Labours asre like a true colonial whilst the citizens have to do with poor and failing public services which is continuing.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jac		</title>
		<link>https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35378</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://jacothenorth.net/blog/?p=34433#comment-35378</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35376&quot;&gt;CapM&lt;/a&gt;.

FPTP imposes a &#039;hurdle&#039; that the SNP has overcome but Plaid Cymru will not.

I&#039;m not saying that the SNP is no left of centre, but what I am saying is that the SNP has not allowed itself to be hijacked by tiny and intolerant groups pushing obscure and exotic interpretations of human sexuality.

As for Brexit, the SNP is in tune with Scottish opinion. Plaid Cymru is not in tune with Welsh opinion.

Perhaps Plaid&#039;s real problem is trying to be too &#039;progressive&#039; in a socially conservative country. And by so doing offering very little to those whose votes it must have to emulate the SNP.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35376">CapM</a>.</p>
<p>FPTP imposes a &#8216;hurdle&#8217; that the SNP has overcome but Plaid Cymru will not.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that the SNP is no left of centre, but what I am saying is that the SNP has not allowed itself to be hijacked by tiny and intolerant groups pushing obscure and exotic interpretations of human sexuality.</p>
<p>As for Brexit, the SNP is in tune with Scottish opinion. Plaid Cymru is not in tune with Welsh opinion.</p>
<p>Perhaps Plaid&#8217;s real problem is trying to be too &#8216;progressive&#8217; in a socially conservative country. And by so doing offering very little to those whose votes it must have to emulate the SNP.</p>
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		<title>
		By: L M		</title>
		<link>https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35377</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[L M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:12:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://jacothenorth.net/blog/?p=34433#comment-35377</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35373&quot;&gt;Jac&lt;/a&gt;.

If that comment is a response to mine, I don&#039;t agree with it I&#039;m afraid.

The twitter accounts implied that the secret facebook group were helping its’ members “dodge” disciplinary action, with no explanation as to how they allege that was achieved.

The secret facebook group was set up in 2016 and there was and still is very little support for members of the Labour Party who had been suspended pending an investigation. 
As you will be aware, an allegation made against someone is not a presumption of guilt.

The assistance given to members of the secret facebook group who were under investigation comprised mainly of:

·       Assisting the member with writing their letter of appeal

·       Emotional support

·       Assisting with writing subject access requests to obtain information as very little in the way of evidence was supplied by the Labour Party (although there has been a slight improvement with that in recent months)

·       Helping the suspended member (in the case of a warning to be left on file letter issued by the Labour Party) to write a letter to the Labour Party to ascertain how long the warning was to remain on file and to obtain objective justification from the Party for warnings kept on file indefinitely.

Those twitter accounts have retained data for at least 4 years that I know of and yet they are not registered as a data controller, which would enable the individuals whose data they have obtained (by stealth) and are retaining for nefarious purposes, to make a subject access request for all and any information held upon them by these groups.

This flies in the face of the rhetoric the twitter accounts
spout, which is that they are fighting antisemitism and yet they have sat upon it for years and have not reported it to the police, which is what someone would do if they felt a hate crime (which is what antisemitism is) had been committed because the UK police are the only authority who are authorised to investigate hate crime.

The current treatment of hate crime is based on recommendations from the McPherson report; which to summarise means that the police will record an incident as a hate crime if the “victim” perceives it as so.

The police will then investigate; looking at evidence, taking statements from witnesses etc. and if the police conclude that it was indeed a hate crime, then a harsher tariff is imposed by the CPS in terms of sentencing.

So for the accounts to purport  that they are fighting antisemitism, it seems at odds that they would retain the data obtained until there was a General Election (or something similar) and “expose” the information on social media at a time when it could not only do damage to the Labour Party but also jeopardise a confidential disciplinary process.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35373">Jac</a>.</p>
<p>If that comment is a response to mine, I don&#8217;t agree with it I&#8217;m afraid.</p>
<p>The twitter accounts implied that the secret facebook group were helping its’ members “dodge” disciplinary action, with no explanation as to how they allege that was achieved.</p>
<p>The secret facebook group was set up in 2016 and there was and still is very little support for members of the Labour Party who had been suspended pending an investigation.<br />
As you will be aware, an allegation made against someone is not a presumption of guilt.</p>
<p>The assistance given to members of the secret facebook group who were under investigation comprised mainly of:</p>
<p>·       Assisting the member with writing their letter of appeal</p>
<p>·       Emotional support</p>
<p>·       Assisting with writing subject access requests to obtain information as very little in the way of evidence was supplied by the Labour Party (although there has been a slight improvement with that in recent months)</p>
<p>·       Helping the suspended member (in the case of a warning to be left on file letter issued by the Labour Party) to write a letter to the Labour Party to ascertain how long the warning was to remain on file and to obtain objective justification from the Party for warnings kept on file indefinitely.</p>
<p>Those twitter accounts have retained data for at least 4 years that I know of and yet they are not registered as a data controller, which would enable the individuals whose data they have obtained (by stealth) and are retaining for nefarious purposes, to make a subject access request for all and any information held upon them by these groups.</p>
<p>This flies in the face of the rhetoric the twitter accounts<br />
spout, which is that they are fighting antisemitism and yet they have sat upon it for years and have not reported it to the police, which is what someone would do if they felt a hate crime (which is what antisemitism is) had been committed because the UK police are the only authority who are authorised to investigate hate crime.</p>
<p>The current treatment of hate crime is based on recommendations from the McPherson report; which to summarise means that the police will record an incident as a hate crime if the “victim” perceives it as so.</p>
<p>The police will then investigate; looking at evidence, taking statements from witnesses etc. and if the police conclude that it was indeed a hate crime, then a harsher tariff is imposed by the CPS in terms of sentencing.</p>
<p>So for the accounts to purport  that they are fighting antisemitism, it seems at odds that they would retain the data obtained until there was a General Election (or something similar) and “expose” the information on social media at a time when it could not only do damage to the Labour Party but also jeopardise a confidential disciplinary process.</p>
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		<title>
		By: CapM		</title>
		<link>https://jacothenorth.net/blog/ge2019-runners-riders-and-early-fallers/#comment-35376</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CapM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Nov 2019 13:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://jacothenorth.net/blog/?p=34433#comment-35376</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Reply to Jac
&quot;First past the post has not inhibited the SNP. Plaid Cymru needs to copy the SNP in being a broad-based and focused party that takes on Labour. Don’t blame the electoral system, the votes are there for a party more like the SNP.&quot;

Scotland is a different country and there are other factors that were not of SNP design that contributed to their success beside taking on Labour. 
FPTP inhibited the SNP for generations.

I&#039;d question your opinion that the SNP are a &quot;broad-based&quot; party. Can you supply evidence that indicates that they are not left of centre and not anti Brexit? 
If some of their voters are right of centre and pro Brexit doesn&#039;t this indicate that those voters see a bigger picture and are willing to hold their noses in the short term?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reply to Jac<br />
&#8220;First past the post has not inhibited the SNP. Plaid Cymru needs to copy the SNP in being a broad-based and focused party that takes on Labour. Don’t blame the electoral system, the votes are there for a party more like the SNP.&#8221;</p>
<p>Scotland is a different country and there are other factors that were not of SNP design that contributed to their success beside taking on Labour.<br />
FPTP inhibited the SNP for generations.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d question your opinion that the SNP are a &#8220;broad-based&#8221; party. Can you supply evidence that indicates that they are not left of centre and not anti Brexit?<br />
If some of their voters are right of centre and pro Brexit doesn&#8217;t this indicate that those voters see a bigger picture and are willing to hold their noses in the short term?</p>
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