Mar 282017
 

Brexit

In a recent post, Welsh Independence Referendum, I looked at the call for a second Scottish independence referendum and a referendum on Irish reunification, before considering an independence referendum in Wales and concluding that such a referendum could not be won.

In this post I’m going to give the possibility of a Welsh independence referendum a bit more of an airing, partly because I may not have made my views clear in that earlier post and partly because I think a few other things need to be clarified. For example . . .

A few days ago I tweeted about the mother of the man who killed people outside Westminster last Wednesday, linking to a BBC report that she lives in Carmarthenshire. I received a response from ‘Cymroewrop’ accusing me of making assumptions about the man’s cushion-making, good-lifer mother. Whoever Cymroewrop is he or she had missed the point.

The point I was making was about English colonisation. And yet, I can imagine the conditioning that resulted in that response – ‘the killer was a person of colour . . . known to be a convert to Islam . . . therefore this man making the comment must be a racist and an Islamophobe’.

Naturally, I wondered who Cymroewrop is, so I checked. In addition to being obviously pro EU this person’s hash tags – #indyrefcymru #indywales @yescymru – tell us that he or she supports Welsh independence. And if we check the profile further then the header photo suggests that Cymroewrop is one of those who believes that only stupid people voted for Brexit. The analogy would appear to be lemmings.

Maybe he or she is one of the ‘progressives’ I wrote about in the post in which I explained why I was voting for Brexit, people on the political left who regard themselves as morally and intellectually superior to those holding different views.

click to enlarge

Cymroewrop’s Twitter timeline is full of retweets of those still fighting the Brexit battle. Predictably, Cymroewrop is also opposed to President Trump. Which brings us to the fundamental problem, and explains my reluctance to get involved in the campaign for an independence referendum.

I suspect that this campaign is attracting too many who see Welsh independence as a route back into the EU. An approach that might – and I stress might – work in Scotland but is more likely to alienate potential support in a country where a majority voted for Brexit. Consequently, promoting EU membership could damage the chances of success in a Welsh independence referendum.

As for Cymroewrop, I don’t know who you are, but it seems obvious to me that while we seem to agree on the need for Welsh independence, we would almost certainly disagree on why we need it.

Getting Personal

The reason I feel so strongly about this link with Brexit is because after the EU referendum last year I received some rather unpleasant messages from people who had obviously voted Remain. Here’s a selection of those I’m prepared to make public, with identification obscured.

The point I was trying to make with the reference to Leanne Wood was that if Brexit is so disastrous for Wales then the day after it was announced I would have expected the leader of Plaid Cymru to be somewhere other than at a Brit feminist conference. This, for me, summed up all that’s wrong with Plaid Cymru.

click to enlarge

These tweets betray the usual precious intolerance of the right-on left. For whom I am an “incomer”, I have blighted the lives of children, I am an utter bastard for exercising my democratic right to disagree with these people who are – remember! – all nationalists in favour of independence.

Perhaps they think that as a child of the Sixties I should now be a mellow old dude; well, I’m not. Yes, I was there, long hair and flares, even the granny glasses; I loved the music, still play my Tom Paxton albums, Joni Mitchell and Judy Collins . . . I just didn’t buy into the politics. Or rather, I saw the need for change, but not the change offered by the Soviet Union, or campus ‘radicals’ going through a phase before joining father in the oak-panelled offices of Shyster Shyster & Shyster. For fuck’s sake! I supported the US in Vietnam.* I am a reactionary beyond redemption! Get used to it.

Comments such as those contained in the tweets are water off a duck’s back to me, but they do make me pause, and wonder if I could ever co-operate with such people in an independence campaign. So you may begin to understand my concerns that a movement for independence could be subverted by those still grieving their referendum defeat last June.

*Though let me make clear that I no longer subscribe to the Domino Theory.

Independence

All my life I have wanted Wales to be independent. The earliest manifestation might have been when, as a ten-year-old in Brynhyfryd school, I submitted as my contribution to the St David’s Day eisteddfod a picture I’d drawn of Llywelyn rejecting the terms offered him by Edward I.

I’d copied it from the Odhams Press volume British History in Strip Pictures, a book I still I have. (Sentimental old bugger that I am!) What possessed a ten-year-old in Swansea, after five years of an essentially English education, hearing almost daily the horrors and heroism of WWII, to select that picture from a volume extolling the greatness of England?

For that’s the kind of book it was. The next page was devoted to ‘The Model Parliament’ and that was followed by two whole pages glorying in ‘The Hammering of the Scots’. The inside covers were given over to a parade of kings and queens of England beginning with William of Normandy.

click to enlarge

So you see, independence is not something I’ve come around to because of Brexit. It’s not even a position I’ve adopted because of the sheer fucking awfulness of the quisling Labour Party, or the smackinthegobability of Alun Cairns, Guto Bebb and the Fat Farmer. It’s a multiplicity of things: it’s the slimeball civil servants running Wales for their London masters; it’s the locusts of the Third Sector who have descended upon us to take what little we have; it’s the lying bastards at the BBC, the Wasting Mule and elsewhere; it’s the fact that someone as obnoxious as Mark James can be left to run one of our councils as if it was his private fiefdom; it’s the realisation that I now belong to the Welsh minority in the area I live.

These combine to tell me that Wales is a corrupt, inefficient, poor, fucked up Third World colony . . . yet it could be so much better.

But maybe things are getting better – look what I picked up in Porthmadog today! Bear Grylls has come to live among us . . . well, he’s come to live in Wales, anyway; I don’t suppose he’ll be mixing much with Welsh people seeing as he’s involved in tourism.

click to enlarge

‘Forage For Wild Foods’, it says! (Let Jac recommend those nice white mushrooms.) Or ‘Learn How To Protect Yourself in the Wild From Attack’. Yes, the grizzlies near Pwllheli are particularly aggressive. ‘Will You ESCAPE from Cabin Wood?’ With any luck, no; you’ll all die; Grylls will then be exposed as a self-promoting, money-grabbing bastard, and the world will be spared his puerile exhibitionism for a long, long time.

A Chorus not a Drone

Wales needs independence, to save us from all the above-mentioned ills and, more importantly, to ensure our survival as a nation.

There are those who agree with me on independence but believe socialism and the EU must be added to the mix. A country in the state Wales is in needs socialism like a dog needs more fleas, and I say that because socialism is a system for distributing wealth, not for creating it.

Which is why I could never join an organisation made up in the main of the sort of persons I introduced you to earlier. But if there were other voices, from other political standpoints, then the call for independence might garner more support, and as a result be more difficult to dismiss.

It could be that the more diverse and diffuse the call for independence the better, for different voices can make a choir, and that’s always preferable to the monotonous whine of the smug and the self-righteous.

Of course, too many different voices can also be discordant, so to avoid this let me suggest that those of us working towards the same objective of independence treat each other with a little more respect in future. We may not like each other, but let’s not give gifts to our enemies and waste time fighting amongst ourselves.

Finally, to put your minds at rest, I’m not planning to start any organisation, but I have no objection to this blog serving as a focus for those who want independence but might not feel comfortable with people who regard them as lemmings, and blighters of their children’s futures.

♦ end ♦

  156 Responses to “Welsh Independence, But For The Right Reasons”

  1.  

    You hit the nail on the head Jack. I’ve been observing the YesCymru campaign since last year. I suspect it is, at least in part, infiltrated by a EUophile fifth column. As its name suggests, it essentially mimicking the Scottish independence campaign – which I know a lot about – having spent most of 2014 in Scotland campaigning for independence there.

    Wales is a different country, a different nation, as the 2016 referendum result clearly showed. I’m hopeful that a Welsh independence drive is coming in the next few years. But it will have a distinctly Welsh flavour, not Scottish.

    The SNP maybe pushing all the right buttons with their pro EU / pro-migration / coddled from cradle to grave / big state brand of nationalism.

    But what resonates with the Welsh is something different – based more on family, social solidarity and this piece of earth we have inhabited since history began. (Not that the present Plaid Cymru top dogs would ever notice.)

    If the Scottish have an equivalent of hiraeth, I’m not familiar with it.

    •  

      Glasiad, you asked on Facebook (or was it Twitter? To be honest, I can’t remember!) if YesCymru Abertawe meetings would welcome people who were against the EU. That’s the case. We have had people in the meeting who are very firmly against membership of the EU, and YesCymru Abertawe is about Welsh independence, not about the EU. You have interesting ideas and obvious knowledge on the matter, and it would be great to see you come along, but when I said this in answer to you and asked if you were you coming, you didn’t answer and fell silent. I can assure you (again) that whatever effect the EU referendum has had on Wales, and whatever effect it has had in getting people talking more about independence for Wales, we certainly aren’t pushing independence for Wales as a pro EU thing. It would be great to have your input if you want to come along.

      •  

        That’s assuming it was you, of course. If it was a different Glasiad, apologies! [Just going by the uncommon name, so could well be wrong.]

    •  

      Scotland independent WAKE UP

      •  

        You’re a troll. Unless you have some cogent arguments to support your position you’d better stay away.

  2.  

    […] post Welsh Independence, But For The Right Reasons appeared first on Jac o’ the […]

  3.  

    I know it’s a difficult habit to drop Jac, but I REALLY wish you wouldn’t keep on referring to people’s political stance as “right” or “left” wing. Those descriptions of directions simply muddy the waters when it comes to politics, and they are the establishment’s invention in order to pigeon hole people. In other words a load of bollocks, which is meant to tarnish. I’ve just finished reading the latest comments on your last blog post, where someone has just accused you and me and others who contribute on here, as holding “hard core right wing nationalist beliefs“. What the fuck that means I don’t know! All I know is that I’m a Welsh Nationalistic patriot – full stop. Mind you the person who wrote it was having a teenage style hysterical tantrum at the time, because I had put down a Marxist historian who seems to be a hero of his. I suppose someone is now busily picking his toys up from the floor and putting them back in his pram. However it does show the personality traits of those liberal ‘progressives’ who all seem to fit into the same bracket in society – many in Plaid and even more on our University campuses.

    Anyway enough about the malleable liberal ‘do gooders’, who only show their true colours when things don’t go their way, and you get them in more than the one party that uses the word ‘liberal’ in it’s title.

    I wholeheartedly agree with you that there is a need to unite under the independence flag, however, some of these liberal ‘progressive’ types, who seem to genuinely want independence (but thankfully there aren’t a lot of them about), are nigh on impossible to work with until they gain a bit of worldly education regarding the real world. You see they are also the cuddly naive types that are the easiest to brainwash by the system, hence the reason they thought the world was going to end on the day we voted out of that undemocratic hell-hole. Why? Because the establishment told them so & they believed it!

  4.  

    I am one of those who voted to remain in the EU, and support YesCymru. But here’s the problem. Yes many people have wanted independence for a long time, myself included, and some have been spurned to more active action recently as the fear of EnglandandWales is now more imminent since the “Brexit” vote, and the time seems apt to spark a public conversation as Scotland move to have another referendum. And that is likely affecting the tone and membership of YesCymru right now (a group is it’s membership after all). But people with differing views to me (for example) not joining the group, or starting their own chapter, is never going to change the discussion. Those voices are needed to join to make this a successful cross party, and politics movement.

    It is hardly as if vitriol is not coming from leave voters too, as I’m sure you are aware, but that does not mean that we should not try to work together (or at least under an overarching banner/brand) towards this shared goal. In fact if we don’t find a way to do that we have little hope of ever getting independence. It will be spun as “internal conflict” or disagreement on the main issue by any media or “pro-unionist” cause. And in fact managing to come together under one banner will provide the (correct) impression that this is more important than regular day-to-day politics, or the “Brexit” vote. But it will take work and a strong stomach perhaps.

    We will never all agree on the EU obviously, but that is an issue for us, as a country, to deal with and discuss after we gain independence. It’s just a bit raw now for those of us who wanted to remain, and is still a huge topic throughout the “UK” so bound to be a focus for people.

    For now, at least, people could use the hashtags on twitter #IndyWales etc. to add their voices so others see them more and even make their own YesCymru group, or similar organisation, “YesCymru, No EU” perhaps 😉 or something, anything, to help make more voices heard, and provide an organizing mechanism for those like yourself, because we need to get organized.

    While I may not agree with you on politics, I know half of the country didn’t agree with me either. We are split, and that makes things hard. People can’t change who they are and what they think, but you and yours can get involved and help steer the discussion. Your voices are needed, if things stay as they are maybe people who see things your way will stay out, the campaign will be one sided, not appeal to leave voters, and we will all lose.

    So please, anyone who wants to have their views heard. Don’t shout from the sidelines, get involved. The only way you will see yourself reflected in the movement/campaign/whatever is if you are in it, because no-one else is you.

    For what it’s worth, we will need to make the economic argument for Wales outside of the EU anyway, because that is happening, and seems like it will be the main issue for those not already convinced we need independence. And your anti EU perspective could shed light on how we can argue more effectively against Westminster rule.

    Sure, if you join a group without bringing more voices like yours you may feel “outnumbered”, want to scream and walk out, but that is only because not enough of you are there, and the absence of disagreement will also lead to “groupthink” in the group itself which won’t help anyone. So bring more people, and start your own. It will take being patient and diplomatic, especially until we know which areas need to be our focus. And probably some things will always lead to conflict, but we need to work together under an at least semi-united front to get the visibility and clout needed to make a difference.

    Maybe think of us lot as the gormless cousins, and we can think of you as the grumpy uncles and we can maybe grit our teeth and get through a family activity holiday together, we may even find some things we like about each other. 😉 Even if not enough to want to be friends or talk on Twitter or whatever. (strained analogy maybe, sorry)

    So yeah, I’ll sod off now, sorry for the excruciatingly long post, but I hope it made sense and maybe I made a reasonable case for people who don’t feel represented getting involved in YesCymru. Anyway, I’ll shut up now.

    Take care.

    •  

      Yes, that made sense to me Llefain. A tough ask but doable. Our preservation as a free independent nation comes first. EU debates come way down the priority list at this time – we can debate the EU and our part in it when we are free.

      •  

        May I point out that in 1975, Plaid Cymru were, and campaigned, AGAINST joining the EEC. There were however two Plaid activists who were in favour, Dafydd Wigley and Saunders Lewis.

        •  

          Really? That’s interesting. Saunders Lewis possibly, because he was a WW1 officer veteran and had a bit of a skewed view of Europe after the ‘Great War’. It has to be remembered that he was also brought up in Victorian times, and some things weren’t the same in his era. I’m surprised about Wigley, although during my time with the party at the turn of the 21st century, the groundswell of Europhiles had grown substantially, and it became the party’s mantra as it continued to gravitate towards socialism. By then Wigley was also sadly on the bandwagon.

          Mind you the ‘Europe’ envisaged in 1975 was a totally different animal to today’s EU. Then it was disguised as a ‘Common Market’ as opposed to an European Union, so it may have drawn Wigley then for different reasons than the majority in the party that now support it.

          •  

            Actually, at the time, the issue was also seen through the ‘right’ v ‘left’ split. DET was a leftie siding with Labour who was anti-Europe. The ‘socialists’ have traditionally seen the EU as a ‘rich mans club’.

            It was actually called the EEC (European Economic Community) and ‘sold’ as the ‘Common Market’ during the 1975 campaign. The Treaty of Rome has always had ‘ever closer union’ as a founding principle. It should also be noted that the Euro was effectively ‘invented’ in the 1950s where the Belgium Franc and the Netherlands Guider (plus Lux) was fixed as a single currency. Locked exchange rate. It’s just that the coins were not minted.

            Plaid Cymru by the 1970s was already experiencing a form of ‘Stockholm syndrome’ with Labour. In 1975 on the LEAVE side in sympathy with Labour, and now, as REMAIN in sympathy with Labour. Although I’m on opposite sides to Jac over Brexit, the most important point he makes is the REASON for independence.

            Whether Wales is independent outside the EU or joins in the future as a member of the EU Celtic block alongside Ireland and Scotland, the real task is to break the union with England.

  5.  

    Ideologies aside practical timetables to be worked to that contain a lot of ifs and buts:

    1: Autumn/Winter 2018 Brexit Deal Revealed (dependent on how long trade negotiations will take)
    2: AW2018 – Spring 2019: Scottish Independence Referendum – Yes Victory? End of the UK.
    Westminster will be forced to renegotiate its relationship with the devolved administrations left – ie NI and Wales – will this be subject to a referendum? Barnet Consequentials will have to be ripped apart and reconfigured as well as what to do with powers returning from Brussels.
    3: 2019 General Election – who comes out on top not just in Westminster but particularly in NI – will there be a call for a border poll(referendum)?
    4: Post 2019 GE Westminster forced again to renegotiate the Wales Act – vis a vis powers coming back from Brussels, according to the Great Repeal Bill these powers (agriculture etc) are to remain in Westminster and not get devolved. That in itself should bring about a call for a referendum in Wales.
    But who is going to call it? Leanne Wood on Question Time and YesCymru are angling for a multiple choice format, which is guaranteed to result in a No for Independence, but a demand for more powers – that’s a no brainer, Westminster will at this time be hogging powers that rightly should belong to the Welsh Assembly. If you want Independence the question format has to be a straight Yes/No affair.

    The calculation seems to be after we have had more powers for over a decade or two then we can timidly ask Westminster and Mama England for Independence. But what material change in circumstances is going to occur in a decade or 2 to demand Independence? England will be busy trying to sign trade deals(which will take around a 7 – 10 years to sign) and stopping its economy from tanking, Wales will be trying to hold on to what’s left of its young as everyone emigrates and everyone gets poorer. And if Plaid Cymru and Leanne Wood have been singing since time immemorial that Wales is too poor to be Independent with a deficit at 15%GDP and poverty at 23% in a decades time Brexit would have made this statistic even worse. So effectively the Independence party have scored an own goal. Because in a decades time with poverty rates are at let’s say 35%+ and Wales’s deficit at 25%GDP (hypotheticals – I know ) the argument will be we should have had the independence referendum a decade ago its too late now, if we were poor then we are even poorer now! And this independence timetable plaid cymru and yescymru are working to has not taking into account the time bomb that is demographic shifts!

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/27/parts-of-uk-that-voted-for-brexit-may-be-hardest-hit-study-finds

    •  

      That also is a valid and thought provoking comment Anon.

    •  

      Are you arguing that by the time we wake up to the damage caused by the Union there won’t be enough of us left to achieve independence? If so, then we are unlikely to win a vote in the next few years even if we suffer famine and pestilence as a result of the Union. That’s because some 30% of the population is not Welsh and will never consider independence no matter how bad the situation. This has come about because of colonisation that Plaid Cymru has been afraid to tackle, afraid to even discuss. So fuck Plaid Cymru and the treacherous, weakling politics it represents. The best hope for Wales is that the biggest casualty in the next few years will be Plaid Cymru.

      •  

        I think the 30% (it was 21% at the last census) is slightly misleading. I was born in England to Welsh parents but brought up in Wales and went through Welsh-medium education. I don’t see myself as anything other than Welsh, though according to the census I would be English-born. A lot of our towns are close to the border and I think in many cases people are born over the border because the nearest hospital happens to be there. For that reason I think the figure of people who see themselves as English is less than that.

        That said, the figure of non-Welsh population is definitely much higher than the non-Scottish population in Scotland – but that doesn’t mean those people will definitely oppose independence. In Scotland there are many English people who voted Yes last time and will vote Yes again next time. There’s no reason the same thing can’t happen here if we persuade them that it’s beneficial for us all.

  6.  

    I confess to being a little confused by now. Jac, Glasiad, BG … where can I find a description of the type of ‘non-lefty’ indy Wales you all envisage? What is it you want if not equality? Back to landowners and mine owners cracking the whip? You say ‘family values’ but cannot a nation as small as Wales be seen as to some extent a big family where people support one another? How if you don’t team up with Europe can you avoid being eternally in thrall to England, and an abusive self-obsessed England at that in the last stages of post-imperial dementia? So many questions. But unless you can stitch together a credible vision of a Free Wales that will appeal to 50%+ of the population you’re on a hiding to nowhere. And that would be a great shame, especially at a time when the ‘Celtic fringe’ might band together to further isolate England.

    •  

      Once again, for fear of being repetitive, there is no such thing as ‘left’ & ‘right’ it’s an abstract concept that’s been cooked up. It doesn’t exist.

      •  

        hear, hear. Been banging on about this fake dichotomy for donkeys’ years but we are dealing with people who are comfortable dwelling in that dumb linear model when the reality if far more complex and at least 3 dimensional.
        Whoops, getting a bit Pi.r cubed now so will not go further into the gloom !!Although if someone can offer insight into how much of the surface area of the ideologies sphere is taken up by nitwit political poseurs I’d be happy to exchange ideas ( for a bit of a laugh )

        •  

          Fair enough, I remember years ago seeing diagrams with various axes to explain political polarities. So what to you are the major dimensions of Welsh politics, and where do you see yourself on them. What are you for and what are you agin. It isn’t really rocket science or even higher maths …

          •  

            somewhere on here, I think, some time back I said that Welsh independence should be more about our identity rather than a singular ideology, as that falls into the trap of the rigid right-middle-left structure. Wales needs to cherry pick because it can’t afford horrific mistakes and expensive gestures. Now one good thing about having a lot of post 1945 experience is that we should collectively be able to articulate key policies on the major factors that make a small independent nation tick. Big items would be Education & skillsTraining, Health and Care, Housing, Business and Industry including Agriculture, Justice Law and Order, Infrastructure including Transport and Environment, and some kind of National Security/Defence more in keeping with our real status rather than some delusion about power.

            At present the picture is blurred by over dependence on externally derived funding. However there have been bits of research that suggest the picture is distorted and that a stable economy could be developed out of our current situation. I’m not entirely sure about that but for sure there has been a history of waste and excess for as long as one can remember and the creation of a new nation state could provide a catalyst for a change in national habits.

            For example, I wrote earlier about the nation’s pathetic health profile – if we address some of the most glaring problems as “bad habits” needing prompt changes in behaviour then a proportion of our dietary/obesity/smoke/drink based illnesses would drop away. Yet ALL our politicians babble on about the “sacrosanct NHS” competing to pour money into a gaping wound yet doing next to nothing to choke off the problems. I want the NHS to survive but recognise that I and all other users have a duty not to abuse it by negligence or indulgent behaviour.

            Elsewhere I read about some debate about the low %ages of youngsters gaining places in Oxbridge. Well FFS why Oxbridge ? Where is the plan to create centres of excellence in learning and research in Wales ? If we had them we would attract paying students from all over the world doing good stuff which would further enhance our global standing. In the meantime, while we try to catch up, let our young people look elsewhere for excellence, or is the old boy network accessed at Oxbridge deemed to be more rewarding ? .

            I could go on and on. There is much to debate and crystallise. We need to sort out priorities rather than embrace fashionable issues and causes. I know the latter is fertile ground for catchy soundbites for the talking heads but the real need is a depth of consideration of the key building blocks for a new nation state.

            •  

              Dafis bach! I could have written every word of that myself, not because I think it’s well thought out and written down – you’re probably better at that than I am, but because as far as I’m concerned the content is a 100/100 mark!

              You have summed up EXACTLY the same thoughts that go around in my head; and, I wouldn’t doubt, quite a few other heads on this blog of Jac’s .

              EXCELLENT!!

            •  

              Dafis @ 18:37
              Nothing there I would disagree with in the least, indeed if it were a manifesto I’d be inclined to sign up to it, if I were Welsh that is.

              Which then begs the question, why is there no party standing on such a platform, or at the very least a strong pressure group campaigning for your vision of Cymru Fydd?

              •  

                It makes me wonder at times also. In my more cynical moments I have concluded that we are in some kind of “post independence” phase where the first round of pro independence activity petered out and we now “enjoy” a kind of dystopian period where people say anything, but don’t mean it, so that communities live out their lives shrouded in false expectations.

                The Labour lie in Wales is a classic example. On the face of it the creation of a fairer society with sound underpinning of care for the sick and needy sounds admirable. While purporting to be creating just that the politicians delivered a bureaucratic monster where the needs of the ordinary punter were addressed as a matter of coincidence, and jobs for the boys were more important than systematically tackling real issues.

                No wonder that in due course this same system was adopted by the witch Thatcher when she destroyed chunks of our industries without having the slightest idea of replacing them. Far easier to bump up benefits and create a shock wave of idle dependency that remains with us to this day.

                And people wonder why I’m such a miserable old bastard ! I survived and at times prospered ( relatively ) from the early 70’s till 3 years ago when I retired. I never joined the formal political parties but engaged in discussions with loads of politicians and business leaders over the years. Many of them appeared sincere enough, even paternalistic business leaders did not seem to be particularly motivated to screw their workforces. However the advent of rampant globalisation from late 80’s onwards created a generation of international business leaders whose “drivers” seem to have been on a different wavelength, and this ruthless manipulative virus may have spread into politics also. Certainly by the arrival of Blair & Bush we had evidence that a new strain of seriously mutated ego centric bastard was doing the rounds and that remains the case. Cameron would have been just as much of a power crazy loon except he saw the mess made by Blair and was reluctant to get sucked into the same shit storm. However he put his money on the EU as his platform for future personal power and the legs on that stool collapsed under him ! Tut.

                So here we are, I had to get that off my chest, but that’s my take on this gloomy scene. There again, I get up on a bright sunny morning and sometimes I think well somebody could start something interesting today. It doesn’t need to be a revolution, an evolution with sound vision will do. And maybe, just maybe, that will give me a chance to roll my dice one last time and come out on the winning side.

  7.  

    I actually asked Leanne Wood what Plaid’s stance was on independence, whether Plaid was only interested in independence in the EU. This is a big thing for me because whilst I voted remain I’m not one of those bitter, can’t-let-it-go remainers, I’ve made my peace with the decision. However, Welsh independence is something else, whether we’re in, out or shaking it all about I feel passionately about Welsh Independence – The EU question is neither here nor there. So I was relieved when I got a reply from Ms Wood that stated ‘Many of us [in Plaid] would prefer EU membership, but our independence wouldn’t be conditional on that’. I was relieved because I, like Jac, think arguing for independence in the EU is a bit of a dead duck but also the reply seems to suggest that there are people in Plaid that aren’t tied to the idea of EU membership. As for YesCymru, It doesn’t really bother me if they have a pro-EU flavour nor should it bother anyone else. They’re working hard to get the message out there, doing a hell of a lot more than anyone else that I’ve come across and, ultimately, they won’t get to choose whether we rejoin the EU or not. Presumably that could only ever happen as the result of a referendum or the electing of a party with a mandate?

    •  

      I remain to be convince by Leanne Wood’s position on independence, and that of her party.

      As for YesCymru, I have no objection with most of its members being Remainers; the problem is that too many of them suggest that Welsh independence is just a consolation prize when the real goal is EU membership. Perceptions like that will damage YesCymru and harm the cause for independence.

      •  

        Yes, it would, but I haven’t seen that. The only view on the EU I have heard from pro-EU people in meetings -or otherwise in the flesh as it were – is that YesCymru should not push the EU as a good thing and that we should look to see how Wales would be better off on leaving the EU. I really haven’t seen too many people pushing the other view- in fact, I haven’t come across *anybody* pushing that view to my face, as it were. (Obviously, can only speak from my experience).

        •  

          Sorry, “how Wales would be better off as an independent country on leaving the EU” I meant to say, lost it on editing.

        •  

          I haven’t had the impression that YesCymru are overly pro-EU either. Sure, some members will be but I haven’t had the impression that joining the EU is an aim of the movement. I’m also a little confused as to how people think YesCymru would have and ‘say’ as regards rejoining the EU. This is not dissimilar to the mindset that believes that if Plaid win a majority in the Senedd, the following day every non-Welsh speaker will be *sent to Nant Gwrtheyrn on a 6 month intensive Welsh course/deported/shot (delete as applicable).

          I think many individuals, organisations and Plaid Cymru over-emphasise the EU membership line because they think it is a vote winner (go figure that one out) and/or they think the idea of Welsh independence will be more palatable to be people if the aim is an independent Wales IN the EU, again, I think it’s a case of a gross misinterpretation of the national mood.

          All this aside, I do wonder at what point will all those that are pro-independence stop nit-picking and just support something or someone that is trying to get somewhere on the issue. Anyone waiting for the perfect person, body, movement, political party that perfectly represents their every feeling, opinion and nuance on the issue of Welsh independence will still be waiting the day Little George is crowned Prince of Wayals.

          Maybe there is no Mab Darogan? Or maybe he’s already been but he was hounded out of Wales by some very ‘principled’ people who thought the cut of his jib was a little too pro-European?

          Shouldn’t everyone that is pro independence be working together as much as possible to turn this chicken shit into chicken salad? Or are we going to become typically Welsh, typically plwyfol and [potentially] sacrifice everything as a matter of principle?

  8.  

    How can anyone expect the Wales to be independent is beyond rationality. One independence means NO hand out from central government. That’s before you question the corruption that you have highlighted in previous posts. WAKE UP

    •  

      You assume that independence would mean that we require handouts. I doubt that’s the case. The ‘too poor’ argument has been made many times before for countries that were striving for independence, and when those countries did eventually become independent, surprise surprise, they managed just fine.

    •  

      You’re right, instead we’ll take advice from a chinless Britophile troll that has a myopic understanding of the issue of independence.

  9.  

    “A few days ago I tweeted about the mother of the man who killed people outside Westminster last Wednesday, linking to a BBC report that she lives in Carmarthenshire. I received a response from ‘Cymroewrop’ accusing me of making assumptions about the man’s mother. Whoever Cymroewrop is he or she had missed the point.”

    “The point I was making was about English colonisation. And yet, I can imagine the conditioning that resulted in that response – ‘the killer was a person of colour . . . known to be a convert to Islam . . . therefore this man making the comment must be a racist and an Islamophobe’.”

    – Rubbish, I inferred no such thing. I inferred that you thought they were outsiders that had moved to Wales not knowing anything about them at all. For all you know the mother could have been Welsh that had moved to live to Kent and then moved back years later. Many Welsh do live in England for periods and then move back. It’s your dog whistling I didn’t like.

    Naturally, I wondered who Cymroewrop is, so I checked. In addition to being obviously pro EU this person’s hash tags – #indyrefcymru #indywales @yescymru – tell us that he or she supports Welsh independence. And if we check the profile further then the header photo suggests that Cymroewrop is one of those who believes that only stupid people voted for Brexit. The analogy would appear to be lemmings.

    – The header photo is a general comment about politics – continuing to support Westminster and the Labour party in the Welsh government to me is stupid. It can be applied to Brexit and Trump if you choose to. I certainly don’t make that explicit because I don’t think that. I think many people’s anger with the EU should in fact be directed at Westminster and not the EU. It is Westminster that signed Maastricht without consulting the public and Westminster that applies its interpretation of EU laws.

    Maybe he or she is one of the ‘progressives’ I wrote about in the post in which I explained why I was voting for Brexit, people on the political left who regard themselves as morally and intellectually superior to those holding different views.

    – Again you are painting me with a brush without knowing sod all about me. I think leaving the EU at this time is economically a poor choice. I think May’s insistence on a hard brexit is folly. Countries trade more with their nearest neighbours. That has been modelled many times. I would agree with anyone that said that the EU had become an elitist establishment but then Westminster is more so and the WG with its Cardiff centric view rapidly catching up. If Wales was independent I would be happy with membership within EFTA or some arrangement like that like Norway/Switzerland etc. Certainly within the customs union. If anyone can suggest a way that Wales can trade with the Customs Union & EEA without having a formal arrangement I’d be glad to hear it. Nothing exists thus far.

    A comment about Trump – Trump is a real estate salesman who has inherited his wealth. He is not a politician and has never held a previous office – this can be a good thing quite frankly. But the man and the team that he an Bannon have selected are duping the US public. These are not honest men Jac. They have promised much to anti-globalisation white middle America and I do not see them following through. It’s more a question of competence and what happens when it all begins to unravel and the the US militias start getting agitated as they eventually will. Hillary would have been no better and I do wish that Sanders a long time independent politician would have been given the opportunity. You may not agree with much of Sanders’ approach but he would have been more thoughtful than Clinton or Trump.

    •  

      What you’ve written only pads out the image in my mind of an embittered lefty Remainer. And I’m not convinced about the header photo, either; to me it’s a comment on the EU referendum and insults all those who voted to leave as stupid. If, as you suggest, it’s “a general comment about politics”, then it’s an attack on democracy.

      •  

        Is that the best you can do? If it is that photo that offends then you are in the words of the alt-right a bloody snowflake. If it is democracy that you are defending then Wales clearly wants to vote Labour ad nauseum and is not interested in independence. I thought you were trying to make the case against both these things. Democracy only works properly when the electorate are well informed – it works in Switzerland very well [ a system which I am both informed about and a big fan of]. I am also not left wing but then it is clear to me that you do not understand what left wing actually is ever if I were.

        •  

          A snowflake! Moi!

          If you follow politics then you’ll know that Labour is losing its grip on Wales – that’s democracy in action. Welsh voters may not be as well-informed as your eulogised Swiss voters, but then, even the most complacent and uninformed eventually realise when something – be it a washing machine or a political party – is no longer working for them.

          You may not think of yourself as being on the left but the signs are there with your opposition to President Trump and choosing to remain in the EU. Those stances do not characterise people on the right.

          •  

            “You may not think of yourself as being on the left but the signs are there with your opposition to President Trump and choosing to remain in the EU. Those stances do not characterise people on the right.”

            More than half of the UK Tory party advocating staying in the EU so that’s nonsense.
            My opposition to Trump is that he’s pulling a fast one. I’ve Republican friends in the US and they are aghast by him and his team. Unless you are calling half the Tory party and a good deal of the Republican party left wing then I don’t know what you’re on about.

            The Trump administration’s stance on reducing US reliance on foreign made goods made for US companies I have a lot of sympathy with. Economic nationalism Bannon calls it. I have a lot of sympathy for that. But Trump is not Bannon.

          •  

            Jac, that illustrates the defects of the left -right distinction. There are people who have all the characteristics of a card carrying Nazi actively supporting the EU because it’s an instrument of corporate government. They may even be members of the Labour Party or some other country’s so called socialist grouping. To them the core value of the EU is the increasing ability to order other people’s lives to a degree that likes of you and me can’t stomach. So, lefties, righties whatever they are all enemies of the people insofar as they wish to take away our freedoms and have us do their bidding. Whether they are waving the EU flag or Union Jack is immaterial.

            As I have said many a time before, I was willing to vote Leave but do not mistake that as making a bigger common cause with any of the Brexit clique. How many Remainers realise that they too have made common cause with some very unsavoury types with a seriously long term dark agenda ?

  10.  

    “but let’s not give gifts to our enemies and waste time fighting amongst ourselves”
    In the spirit of the above.
    Gifts that are regularly handed out are the us and them arguments where us are the Cymry and them are the English.
    It’s irrelevant how fair or reasoned and reasonable or accurate those statements may be. Those statements will be sought out and will be used with far more success than failure by the apparatus of the British establishment, media and state against the idea of independence.
    However those type of statements keep being made. The definition of stupidity, supposedly coined by Einstein, is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
    Another thing is that in most of those situations the “us” are in the minority even amongst the Cymry.

    A bit of lateral thinking would help I think. Arguments that put the British state and it’s supporters on the defensive and provide the majority of Cymry and anyone who wants an independent Cymru an acceptable banner to stand by. Here are two suggestions of such arguments.

    A bilingual society that uses a minority language like Cymraeg (or Norwegian etc etc) has a way of protecting it’s people from adverse effects of globalization. No one in a society where the service industry operates through Cymraeg is going, for example, to lose their job to an English speaker in Mumbai. That means that if your children are bilingual their jobs and future are more secure than the jobs and future of monoglot English speakers in Cymru or England. The position that has to be defended is then not about Cymraeg but why do you want my (and your own) children’s future to be less secure than it could be.

    The problem is not that poor and disadvantaged people from England are relocated to Cymru the problem is that English/outsider organisations do this by putting their organization’s needs in front of the poor and disadvantaged of Cymru. The issue is then not about those individuals who have moved into Cymru but about outsider organisations thwarting the prospects, opportunities and happiness of people who already live in Cymru whatever their nationalism.

    •  

      Good thinking . I like in particular you comment “No one in a society where the service industry operates through Cymraeg is going, for example, to lose their job to an English speaker in Mumbai”

      As for ” …..that poor and disadvantaged people from England are relocated to Cymru the problem is that English/outsider organisations do this by putting their organization’s needs in front of the poor and disadvantaged of Cymru. “….. I remain to be convinced. While happy to concede that a lot of those shipped in are relatively harmless in a passive sort of way, the anecdotal evidence is that few of them actually embrace the local native values, culture, identity etc and are therefore a slow corrosive effect rather than immediately visible.

      •  

        Could that be because the natives give them the cold shoulder? Could you, by stereotyping incomers, be inadvertently alienating some potential allies? After all there is no more fervent a believer than a convert …

        •  

          don’t think that stereotyping comes into it, just head out West, work and live among the communities and see it for yourself. Ironic that many of the English in-migrants often moan about their former home area being swamped by immigrants who have no respect for their culture, way of life etc yet replicate those negatives when moving into West, Mid and North West Wales. These people just want a white Anglo colony where their way of life continues with no awareness or tolerance of native culture, language. Indeed it has now reached a point where a strident hostility to Welsh becomes a norm.

          •  

            @ dafis
            What you’ve just said is and has been said many times it doesn’t gain any significant extra support for the idea of independence for Cymru when you consider the country as a whole. Given the conditions in which the independence debate takes place the merit or accuracy of the argument is irrelevant.

            What those who actively oppose independence do is portray a proCymru idea as indefensible and then challenge proCymru supporters to defend it. Most neutrals will then end up avoiding or arguing against the proCymru idea. Most supporters will be uncomfortable and stay quiet as they don’t want to be associated with an idea that is indefensible.

            For example regarding some of the operations of some housing associations. The indefensible idea will be that the proCymru stance victimizes individuals who are already among the most disadvantaged in society just because they are not Welsh.
            So which side are neutrals more likely to empathise with and support and are proCymru supporters going to be confident to make a noise about the idea?

            However if we make the indefensible idea that these housing associations are spoiling the futures of you or your family, or your friends or neighbours. Which side are neutrals more likely to empathise with and support and are proCymru supporters going to be confident to make a noise protesting against?

            •  

              I’ve just realised that read without having read my previous comments that- “However if we make the indefensible idea that these housing associations are spoiling the futures of you or your family, or your friends or neighbours.” doesn’t make the point I’m trying to make.
              The futures that are being spoiled are those of the disadvantaged already living in Cymru.

        •  

          You’re tuned in to the wrong channel that’s being broadcast on a different frequency Marconatrix. Your comment proves that you are meddling in something that you don’t understand. It’s nothing personal, large swathes of the political classes in Cymru are tuned in to the same channel as you. It’s called trying to be an understanding expert in a field that they obviously know next to nothing about.

  11.  

    Just as confused as to why you voted Brexit. The whole Brexit debate (or rather a significant part of it)pre June 23rd, was based on the immigration question and juxtaposed with the right wing aspirations of the potential US President. The public were duped and as is so often associated with an English government,the truth turned out to be very economically spread out on our Welsh loaf.
    Brexit will harm Wales, of that there is no doubt. The UK WILL end up paying homage to the WTO and the Single Market will become so infested with “I told you so” tariffs that it will cease to exist as other European countries consider making a similar Euro exit.

    •  

      The EU for Wales is just a source of hand-outs that help disguise our poverty. These are the ‘benefits’ everyone talks about. I believe we can do without street furniture and the Third Sector. Wales needs to realise that to hand out money a country first has to make it. What I hope to see from Brexit is an end to the socialist and socialistic mind-set in Wales. I want hard times because hard times are more like to get our people thinking, both about socialism and independence.

      •  

        too true. We have scribbled for a long time and repetitively about this begging bowl mentality that is so pervasive. We are persistently reminded by those who claim to lead us that we are as useless as a one legged man in an arse kicking competition, and with that kind of collective self confidence little wonder that we often regard ourselves as worn down with our stuffing hanging out of our arses.

        Last night I had the misfortune of watching that prick Clegg visit Ebbw Vale and performing his caring Remainer stunt. Sure thing he allowed people to vent some reasons why they supported the Leave decision but there was no drilling down to understand what lay beneath because that’s where the real can of worms is hidden and he and his kind don’t want to face up to the harsh facts that remote aloof government from London and/or Brussels pisses people off especially when they have survived 40 years or more of being shat upon by either UK or EU, or both, with alarming regularity. Very revealing to see so much investment in infrastructure being criticised as being wrong solution to misdiagnosed problems. So much easier to shove up buildings and roads rather than understand what works for people.

        •  

          Yes, I saw Newsnight. To get opinions they went to that salon of intellectual witticisms, that home of the mot juste – ‘the Bingo’, and interviewed a few local stars. Jesus! Apart from Dai Davies the only one making sense was that forty-year-old jihadi – what was he doing in the sixth form college?

          Typical of the BBC and a superficial blossom like Clegg, who was probably told: ‘Go to Wales, find some thickoes, let them drivel for a bit, stir in the cliches – sheep, choirs – and then come back to civilisation’.

          •  

            Cymro14 above said : ….”Brexit will harm Wales, of that there is no doubt.”…..

            Membership of EU and UK is also harmful to Wales. Yeah, like a bunch of addicts we are kept in line on a diet of handouts, grants subsidies etc etc i.e a totally managed economy where even the so called entrepreneurs can’t get off their arses unless they’ve been to some “workshop” run by wise guy contractors whose only sharp commercial idea was selling services to WAG/Cynulliad. This opens a further door where they can build a business around the array of grants and other freebies currently in fashion. Failure rates among these types of businesses is quite alarming and those that survive have difficulty meeting the targets set to justify help with funding in the first place.

            Of course there are real innovators and enterprising characters out there but they are treated with suspicion because they elect to avoid much of the dross acting for our Government.

            So, staying in the dependency posture is an option although Brexit will reduce the number of sources from which we draw our fixes. Alternatively a bit more self motivation would not go amiss, especially if our government could wean itself off the habit of funding any old 3rd sector proposition and redirecting scarce resources to add real value to our economy.

        •  

          ” Understand what works for people “. What would that be dafis ? Ebbw Vale and the borough generally, has a dispropotionate number of elderly residents who have entrenched, nostalgic views of a glorious industrial past. Their solution or ” what works for the people ” is a return to full employment, a return of coal mining and steelmaking and to send home every last one of the 2% of EU immigrants that reside here and to close the Polish shop along the way even it it means it stands empty and unoccupied. The shiny new buildings here , as some of our less enlightened residents like to call them are providing an education and practical trade skills to the youth of the borough. The enlightened people at the bingo club would have you believe that a new Asda superstore would benefit the area far more than the new leisure centre and swimming pool. These are the same people who are a major contributor to GP appointment issues in the area due to their unhealthy lifestyles yet blame migrants for any issues with GP appointments. ” Understand what works for the people “, sometimes you need to protect the people from their own folly, dafis.

          •  

            if you think that Nick Clegg has any idea what’s good for that area you will be waiting a long time for remedies. I used to spend a lot of time up in Ebbw Vale and in the adjacent valleys working as a contractor for a wide range of industrial clients from mid 1980’s onwards. Many of those businesses were subsidiaries of foreign parents, others were owned by native managements. However the upsurge in globalisation swept away a lot of those businesses as they either lost out to competition from lower cost countries like E.Europe or China, or they were simply uprooted and replanted elsewhere on the globe. Now the ordinary man and woman on the street have every right to wonder “what the hell did I do wrong ? ” and for them the logic of globalisation is highly frightening. And for them the EU is as much the face of globalisation as any Tory fatboy in Westminster lording it over everybody. The chance to hit back was irresistible.

            As for education and skills training, you are largely right. There was a huge need for remedial action and supplying the buildings was a key component in that remedy. However its capacity for delivering good quality skills and general education is often inhibited by the bureaucratic interference and bias caused by numerous factors including the targetting of funding and serious inability to recognise and respond to skills gaps. This has led to training driven by funds rather than need, creating shed loads of hairdressers yet leaving some areas critically short of electricians. Blame that one on the WAG/Cynulliad who are deploying EU funds in their usual cock eyed way, but at local level someone should have cried out “enough”..

            Similarly with health. This nation is its own worst enemy. But don’t limit your criticism to the poorer communities of the Heads of the Valleys. Take a trip along the South Wales coast and you will find congestion ( clinics as well as chests !) with the same old overweight, unfit folk of all ages tapping into free meds while doing sweet F.A about lifestyles and habits.

            So I still maintain that sending Clegg to Ebbw Vale was either an act of ignorance or one calculated to appeal to the perverse sense of humour of the lounge lizards of choice parts of suburban London. I can imagine Hislop taking the piss out of Clegg on HIGNFY but saving his choicest jokes for the party later on, when sniggering at Ebbw Vale would part of the entertainment.

            Give credit to the EU for committing funds to Ebbw Vale but ask a few questions of how the spending priorities were determined. Had there been a “top> down and back again” consultation between politicians, public officers, businesses and the community at large the plans could have been reconciled to fit with desires. Indeed it could have been done to create a desire for the very things delivered. But no, arrogance reigned supreme – the “we know what’s best for you” mindset was in charge, people were excluded and that fed their anger and frustration.

            So don’t be too harsh on the folks of Ebbw Vale as they merely reflect much of what has hit us all over this country. The arrogance of the political bubble cliques, their unwillingness or inability to communicate with their electorate out there in the communities is as much to blame as anything. Politics should be much more than winning elections every 4 or 5 years and disappearing in between. There are men and women who show how it should be done, who leave their constituents feeling that they have a real advocate not just a face in a photo. They should be the models for the others to aspire but instead we have to live with the troughers and perverts that are so common today.

            •  

              Dafis I have lived in Blaenau Gwent for 60 years and in Ebbw Vale for the last 30, I really do not wish to be hard my fellow Valians, however at times they leave me feeling exasperated. Yes I fully understand your point surrounding globalisation and the image it conjours up in these parts. I also recognise that the term globalisation is readily identified, rightly or wrongly with the EU. Having said all that when you look at the support we have had in this area it comes down to this. Westminster especially under the current colour of UK government has zero interest here, we all understand the myopic view and Cardiff centric policies of WG so again interest here virtually zero from that quarter. The only element of support, for better or we worse that we have had in this region is from Europe.

              One of the interviewees on the Newsnight programme stated she voted to leave because EU development funds to used in Ebbw Vale had been spent on the wrong projects. I have to admit to not fully understanding how the EU allocation of ERDF funding works so correct me if I am under the wrong impression but isn’t the local auhority the body who primarily recommends projects ?
              If I am correct in thinking along those lines then consider the three vanity projects we have here in town, a town clock that never keeps the correct time, a decorative dragon, which while being a work of craftsmanship serves little purpose and the funicular railway which is doing nothing to promote health and the benefits of a brisk walk into town. As far as I am aware all three of these projects were thought up by Blaenau Gwent BC, a Labour administered authority. Of the 9 town councillors we have here in Ebbw Vale, 7 of those represent the Labour party. So it might be a fair assumption that the lady interviewed voted for a Labour ward councillor who then supported the aforementioned misuse of funds and is herself complicit in the very issue she protests about,

              I realise you have no love for Clegg but there have been a number of other progarmes surrounding the EU and the Ebbw Vale voting phenomenon.

              http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-36619410
              http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2016-06-24/why-did-the-south-wales-valleys-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
              http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p042mx2x

              I love this town, I like most of the people but sometimes they defy logic.

              •  

                Has it dawned on people there yet that Carwyn and his gang will not be backing the Circuit of Wales and that’s why the announcement is deferred until after the May council elections?

                •  

                  Jac.only the enlightened minority in this area seem to have grasped that the people behind this venture are attempting to reduce their risk to the absolute minimum while risking public funding. The very public funding that albeit to a small extent the tax payers of Ebbw Vale are contributing. They hear the word jobs, swallow hook line and sinker the exaggerated numbers of jobs being suggested and bang we are off the races.
                  I am old enough to remember the Merryweather fire appliance fiasco of the 70’s. Merryweaher an English company who readily accepted start up funding and a ” ready to go ” industrial unit on the Rassau Ind. estate from the WDA and then did a moonlight flit never to be heard from again.

      •  

        You want “hard times” so that people learn to rely on their own resources? Trouble is hard times mean that many perhaps most people are more vulnerable and more easily pushed around by those who are better off, so power structures are consolidated not opened up. Hard times mean that your small business goes under because potential customers can no longer afford your good or services and can’t or won’t pay their bills; you go out of business and the banks clean up. Hard times means that talented individuals lack the means to achieve their potential so everyone loses. Need I go on?

        •  

          You’re wrong with your suggestion that hard times result in power structures being consolidated. It’s invariably the opposite.

          Most political upheavals have resulted from a crisis of one kind or another and the result has invariably seen the existing power structure getting the blame and losing out. For example, the Romanovs did well out of the disaster on the Eastern Front, didn’t they?

          The only way in which the pre-existing power structure can benefit from a crisis is by putting the blame on some external or internal ‘enemy’. Which is what the UK Unionist power structure – of all political hues – will do by blaming the EU and the ‘uncertainty’ caused by the SNP.

          The question then becomes, how many accept this Unionist narrative? If not enough accept it, then the UK could go the same way as tsarist Russia, with major change even taking place in England.

          •  

            Well for the sake of Wales, I really do hope you’re right.

            The fall of the Romanovs however did not lead to a people’s utopia, it led to further chaos and eventually to what in many was was soon an even greater dictatorship. The inter-war depression in Germany led to the rise of the Nazis, characterised by blaming the ‘other’. If the English go down that road who is to say that the Welsh won’t be tarred with the same brush as anyone else who’s not a true blue English Tory?

            Like you I fear for the survival of a Wales left isolated in an Englandandwales entity. Wales is the poor relative and hard times will most likely hit Wales (by then “West Anglia”) hardest, tipping the power balance further in England’s favour.

            How many you ask will accept the unionist narrative? Judging by the torrent of anti-Scottish comments, indeed often outright mindless abuse, all over the internet today following the vote to move towards a second indy ref, the answer is, sadly, rather a lot.

  12.  

    Very wise words, Jac. There is no “how to….” manual for building a decent country and in all human societies there is a diversity of ideology and something so basic as Independence cannot, in a democracy, be based on a single ideology. Nor can it be imposed, it has to be seen by the majority as the best solution. Theoretically we are being looked after by another country who claim they are our best option, but they are not doing a decent job, even after centuries., Thus looking after ourselves should be an option under increasingly serious consideration. We have to do it our own way., which will be different to every other nation’s path.

    Plaid Cymru’s tedious gradualism and suspected Stockholm syndrome in the Assembly does not inspire confidence. Things will change.

  13.  

    I think we all want independence for the same reasons: so we can have a country that is treated equally with others, that makes decisions about roads, taxes, schools, natural resources (and who owns them), etc. for itself, and doesn’t stand for being told what to do by its neighbour. Not rocket science. But I voted Remain because I knew that to vote Leave at that particular juncture – the ascendancy of the Right, UKIP, Farage et al, plus the pisspoor weakness of Corbyn and the total inertia and anti-Welshness of ‘Welsh’ Labour – was to give those forces the upper hand with which to shaft us. Voting Leave under different circs and with a political system slanted differently might have been a good decision, but doing so when we did was handing power to a right wing, ultra-unionist and viciously incompetent Anglo-nationalist Tory party and their tabloid army of haters, with little Welsh helpers for local décor (not that Cairns or Davies are decorative).
    If Plaid Cymru understood how to fight as dirty and low as their opponents, and not obsess about the moral high ground in the hope that SE Wales and the Valleys will suddenly discover a radicalism they haven’t had for around 40 years, they’d be able to use this critical moment to their advantage.
    I am not optimistic but as they’re the only party that want us independent, I will continue to vote for them, and maybe even join them now.
    This is also the time to join a cross-party independence movement, and perhaps to take the Independence ball out of Plaid’s hands and see who else wants to kick it about.

  14.  

    Loved the article and whilst I am against Welsh independence I warm to some of the things said in the article and in the comments above.

  15.  

    From what I saw of YesCymru and its timing I imagine many have joined it in an attempt to mimic the SNP. Maybe it was even set up with that in mind… to let people vent their Remainery. It’ll be interesting to see if they actually move forward in any meaningful way or just evaporate by 2020. Granted I think Wales getting less money from Westminster than it was before through the EU will be a great tool for any Independence movement.

    As for Independence as a whole… I think we need to take a few lessons from how England has kept the Union together for so long. Democracy divides… who really keeps it together? The Monarch: “Neutral”, a global brand. That is what truly needs to be countered. Individuals who can stand above the politics of Plaid and Labour and regardless of what some one knows of their history or not is enough to make people think about their nationality.

    Worry about the philosophy later. Worry about the divides later. Those things are normal in any nation… but we need to focus on what brings us all together and reforge it for the current day. Make our history relevant.

  16.  

    It’s not that we want “hard times” but we’re going to get them. Stop the pretence about securing the “best deal for Wales” via Brexit. Wales/Carwyn has no say in any case. In the shambles that results, let’s foresee an independent Scotland, a re-united Ireland and hard times in Wales. Will that turn our people to find a shared post-Labour politics? And demand we control our own future?

  17.  

    Whichever way you voted in the referendum, Brexit provides the best opportunity for independence in all our lifetimes, that’s about all we can agree on at the moment.

    However, if we want to see Wales as an independent country and whatever direction we come at it from, surely the starting point should be beginning to provide policy ideas and alternative thinking as to how an indy Wales would address what Professor Calvin Jones today (and many others since last June) point out are the substantial issues Wales faces post Brexit, even with a good deal. http://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/brexit/2017/03/27/wales-and-the-single-market-a-threat-assessment/

    As for YES CYMRU and its off shoots why not ask them what they’re doing and publish it on here, it might help clear up any issues as to their aims and direction of travel, just a thought.

    •  

      I agree entirely that we need ideas to make independence more attractive, but that’s the job of politicians, economists and other academics. For example, has anyone calculated what could be earned by an independent Wales from charging the going rate for the water that crosses the border every hour? And given our abundance what might be the benefits of reduced water rates to places like Port Talbot steelworks?

      But I’m just a whimsical and embittered old nationalist, you can’t expect such contributions from me. I beat an old drum to remind our friends, and perhaps more importantly our enemies, that we are still here. I comment on what I see, what annoys me or encourages me . . . though there’s been precious little of the latter in recent decades. On this blog I pour out my frustrations, especially at those who pretend to be doing so much for Wales and yet achieve so little. But my real target is the colonial system in all its ugly guises, and I hope that I have made it easier to recognise. Because there is no hope of removing the chains if we can’t locate and recognise them.

      I’m sure you’re right about Yes Cymru; I’m sure there’s no mention in anything they’ve published of a second EU referendum or the like, but that doesn’t change my perceptions of what really motivates too many of those involved.

      •  

        My opinion of Yes Cymru is that they are a grass roots level indy movement who are trying to be apolitical and are frankly not interested in brexit. They see the upheaval as an opportunity but the mantra thus far is independence from Westminster first. I’ve read and heard nothing at all about a second ref.

        •  

          We are not discussing the official position of Yes Cymru. The issue being debated is the position vis-a-vis Brexit of many of those now supporting independence, and whether Brexit has swung them around to independence, and whether Brexit is more important to them than independence. In other words, is independence for these people simply a means to an end, that ‘end’ being EU membership.

          I would rather hear the argument I’ve outlined in recent posts. Which runs . . . If Scotland becomes independent, and Ireland unites, then Wales will be left alone with England. This will almost certainly result in Wales being assimilated by England. To avoid this fate, to preserve our nationhood, we must have independence.

          •  

            Well though I did vote remain I am not wedded at all to remaining in the EU. I recognise its importance to our exporting position. Much more important to me is if Scotland goes and Ireland unites then yes we are bloody well stuck with England and that is unacceptable for me. That much more so than any argument on the EU. Westminster is toxic to Wales. Fucking hell! Some common ground Jac. Good evening to you.

          •  

            The last line in your comment is *exactly* what I have heard as the driving force behind 1. the person who started YesCymru Abertawe and 2. the main concern of everyone at the meetings. From where do you get the impression that Yes Cymru members are more concerned with rejoining the EU? I really don’t see it.

            •  

              We can go round in circles for ever, but I maintain that most of those now involved in the independence debate voted to Remain, and that for some of them rejoining the EU is what fuels their interest in independence.

              What I want to see is a campaign arguing that independence is now the best option, with no reference to the EU other than Brexit being the trigger for Scottish independence, and that in turn resulting in Englandandwales, which can only lead to assimilation.

              Future Welsh membership of the EU can be dismissed in a single sentence by suggesting a referendum post independence.

              •  

                And that is *exactly* what I hear from people in the meetings, down to a t. I was simply asking where you get the impression that people in YesCymru are more concerned with the EU than with independence- to me, it’s a defining factor about people involved that they care about independence for Wales, and as I have said not even talking about the EU other than to say membership has no relevance to the argument for independence at the moment. Any circles we are going round in is because you keep mentioning YesCymru in particular as being concerned with rejoining EU without saying where you get this impression from.

                •  

                  I am not criticising YesCymru as an organisation, I am merely expressing my concerns over the attitudes and motivations I detect in some of its members. There is a difference.

      •  

        no worries my comments weren’t directed at you, they were more a general this is what i think we should be focusing on right now if we are to capture people’s interest as Brexit will be in our faces whether we want it or not for a while yet. And i agree more public figures need to step up and join the fight to give it some attention and credibility.

        I included the link because Cardiff Uni has rarely been focused on Cardiff or Welsh issues, but Calvin and his department after a shake up are now focusing solely on Welsh economic/local development, useful after the EU referendum and its a small step forward, lets hope other Uni’s follow suit – we could do with some fresh economic thinking whatever happens.

        Just keep doing what your doing, its important, your blog is invaluable in keeping uncomfortable issues around public spending and the way we’re governed in the public eye, and giving space for what were doing now discussing welsh independence. I’m always amazed at the people I speak to who read your blog regularly, your research and blogs are good value.

        •  

          “Good value”! They’re free! I’m a poor old man surviving on crusts and the occasional glass of Argie red. (Joking.)

  18.  

    An independent Wales in the EU or out of the EU?
    An Independent Wales in Nato or out of Nato?
    An Independent Wales in the Commonwealth or out of the Commonwealth?
    An Independent Wales with the Queen as head of state or as a republic?
    An Independent Wales that is left wing, right wing or middle of the road?
    An independent Wales for the right reasons or the wrong reasons?
    I’ll take any of them, such issues can be sorted out later, I just want an independent Wales.

  19.  

    This article might be of some interest

    http://www.scottishreview.net/GerryHassan205a.html

    •  

      Thank you, Neil. Reading that nightmare you Scots avoided provides a pretty good idea of what Wales is like today.

    •  

      An excellent article – I thoroughly enjoyed it. I couldn’t resist a wry smile (or was it a snarl) when I read:

      One of the worst was local government, which continued an endless ‘jobs for the boys’ culture of patronage. Decades of unchallenged Labour one-party rule in the west of Scotland produced in Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Ayrshire and Renfrewshire, a corrupt, cronyist politics deeply dug and fortified by distortions of first past the post.

      For Scotland of that period read Cymru 2017.

    •  

      Must be one of the few occasions where the words “impressive leadership” and “Kezia Dugdale” have appeared in the same (albeit satirically so) sentence!

      Any fantasy writer worth his/her salt will know that you should never stretch your readers’ credulity beyond breaking point.

  20.  

    This blog is definitely going downhill.
    It used to be full of informed comment and newsworthy stories backed up by convincing evidence.
    Now it’s just a lot a shouty people screaming abuse at things they don’t like.
    Sad.

    •  

      you probably enjoy Guido for its informed content !!

    •  

      To the contrary, the blog is showing that it’s not a ‘one trick pony’. Sure we need newsworthy day to day ‘stories’ backed up by evidence, very juicy and very gossipy, we all love that. There will always be plenty of fodder in that department, but to focus solely on that aspect of things, whilst ignoring all else in the bigger picture – at a critical time, is a bit like the story that Nero played the fiddle while Rome burned, during the great fire of AD 64.

      What you seem more interested in K the G is the fiddle, rather than the fire.

      Having read all the comments on here in the wake of Jac’s latest blog post, I’m heartened to note that there is an obvious convergence of desire (from contributors with diametrically opposed political views) that we need to put side issues to one side, see the bigger picture, and unite in the call for independence under one umbrella. As someone else has commented earlier on here, we can squabble over the details later.

      Shouty people screaming abuse at things they don’t like . .“? Where?

      •  

        I don’t like people pretending to be green frogs, but there again ………

      •  

        I agree with Kermit. This has gone from a politically incisive blog to a pub conversation at closing time. A group of people setting the world to rights and telling each other how wonderful they are.
        Jac has made the mistake of allowing it to be hijacked by contributors to the comments section. There are now people who regularly write more in the comments than Jac does in the original article.
        This might be all good fun, but politically worthless.

        •  

          I try to keep this blog open, and I accept that sometimes it develops into a forum, but what would you have me do, block interesting comments that don’t stick strictly to the subject matter of the post?

          As for your suggestion that, “Jac has made the mistake of allowing it to be hijacked by contributors to the comments section”, I’m not sure what you mean, after all, I’m still writing the articles that attract the comments. Unless you’re saying that some people only visit to read the comments.

          You’ve made incisive and relevant comments yourself in the past, Vlad, and I’m sure you’ll do so in the future, but this particular comment I found to be rather off-target.

  21.  

    Just as an observation, from what I see of the quality & robustness of Welsh governance even under the limited autonomy of devolution, most people would feel it reasonable to expect that an independent Wales would actually be a fully realised corrupt nepotistic kleptocracy in short order. I’d have thought whatever your dreams of independence, that’s the biggest obstacle to them being realised through a referendum.

    Anybody who has lived in Carmarthenshire these last few years & hoped that the WAG might exercise some much needed oversight of the local council at any point, as they are so empowered, would surely fear the idea that the sole guarantor of their life, liberty & freedom was the artist formerly known as WAG…

    •  

      There is no good reason to assume that those representing an independent Wales would bear any resemblance to the clowns down Cardiff docks or the grotesques running Carmarthenshire county council; if only because these national embarrassments would a) be a spur to independence and b) consequently, have been removed and expunged on the road to independence.

      •  

        Silicon Implant – indeed you couldn’t pick 2 more accurate examples of shabby performance at any level of governmental office in Wales than Carms County Council and a Labour centred WAG/ Cynulliad. I don’t think that kleptocracy covers the nature of the beast although the klepto’s do creep into the picture, as does nepotism, lack of ability, self promotion, pet projects, etc Now you are right insofar as great care must be taken if we ever get serious traction on independence that these people are made redundant or get put through a serious behaviour modification programme.

      •  

        He does raise a valid point though. If the people of Wales vote for a bunch of self-serving clowns now, why would they do otherwise following independence. If they can’t be trusted with their present powers, who would want to give them almost unlimited powers? This is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed if Welsh indy is to be seen as credible by a majority.

  22.  

    Here’s a little snippet that I picked up this morning, which perked up my mood no end on a dreary, drizzly day in Aberaeron. Oh and before I get any comments from ignoramuses that I’m an ‘extremist right-wing Nazi Nashie’, I’m not, far from it in fact, because I don’t subscribe to this ‘right’, ‘middle’, and ‘left’ wing crap. As I’ve said SO many times before that is an abstract idea formulated by the establishment to pigeon-hole people.

    Anyway, here it is . . . . Vive la Marine!

    Leading French presidential candidate Marine Le Pen has vowed to “destroy the New World Order” when she is elected President of France, sending a warning to European elites that she will “dismantle their corrupt, self-serving institutions with my own two hands if I have to.

    The people have spoken and their message is clear: the New World Order is finished,” Marine Le Pen announced to a starstruck tour group at the headquarters of the National Front party west of Paris.

    The elite are not safe hiding behind their propaganda fuelled media institutions, making unaccountable decisions in Brussels, and silencing citizens who speak out against this insanity. When I am President a tidal wave of revulsion will be coming their way, the likes of which has never been seen before.” According to a documentary crew, the tour group burst into spontaneous applause.

    So would I! A lady with eyes opened, an open mind and an understanding of where the EU is designed to take us – to The New World Order of total control, that’s been part of the agenda for centuries. Thank goodness that the minions of the elites are starting to wake up – at last- to the reality, instead of the perception deception that they have been programmed to believe from cradle to grave.

    •  

      But of course the mainstream media has no intention of addressing such concerns, it’s much easier and safer to follow their masters’ orders and paint Marine Le Pen as a fascist, racist, Islamophobe, etc., etc.

      •  

        EXACTLY! But, I’m heartened to see that the shiny veneer of the mainstream (false news) media [MSM] is considerably tarnished, and judging by the support she is garnering her followers are getting proper information from somewhere (thanks to alternative internet based media) and rejecting the establishment witch-hunting exercises.

        I’m quite excited by the fact that the more the MSM protest and spew out bile against a politician, the (now more awake and savvy) public are being driven the other way. That’s exactly what happened in the US when all the MSM had their daggers out for Trump (although he is just another ‘mask’ on the same face), and of course Brexit – despite the British Bullshit Corporation’s attempts at being a recruiting sergeant & doomsday soothsayers for the ‘Remainers’. Even the campaign by the western establishment media to blacken Putin and the Russians has fallen on barren soil.

        Good to see! Perhaps we can now move away from the lunatic madness of false (mainstream) media stories.

        I only hope that Y Cymry are just as awake when it comes to our message regarding independence and the backlash we can expect from the usual news sources.

    •  

      I see Big Gee’s brethyn cartref underwear has been playing up his nappy rash again and taking him back to his days of childhood innocence.

      He’ll be telling us next how the Illuminati, in their spaceship buried deep in the ice caverns of Antartica, are going to unlease a wave of UFOs which will return humanity to the good old days of Atlantis, ruled by a god-like Welsh Adonis who used to be a councillor in mid-Wales.

      Tidy!

      •  

        I must admit, I’d never thought about Big Gee’s underwear, and now that you’ve raised the subject, I’m trying to put it from my mind.

        I shall leave it there, but I’m sure the man himself will have some response to make.

        •  

          The name gives the game away. Anyone who derives his pleasures from inhaling any underwear is dodgy but to be tuned into brethyn cartref is ultra. Vlad was always nicer when he stuck to a spot of impaling, this inhaling lark is seriously damaging. Stop it, it won’t be legal in the Cymru rydd !

      •  

        Wow! Either a comedian in the ranks or someone with a strange fetish that’s subconsciously risen to the surface. I’d better not leave my ‘drons brethyn hir’ on the line in future! Hate to think that a pervert might be sniffing them in the middle of the night!

        Glad to see that you’re doing a bit of research at last Vlad. Sadly being new to the task you still need to learn to filter out the crap from the truth – it’s an art. Many ‘alternative’ news sites are MSM plants, designed to entrap newbies on the scene. But it’s encouraging to see that you are at least picking up on these things.

        Who’s the Adonis you refer to underwear sniffer/ inhaler?

    •  

      You may not subscribe to the usual labels that indicate where you stand politically, but coming out in support of such vileness as Front National and Marine Le Pen marks you as a fellow traveller. No worries, I’d always suspected that you were of that ilk – even nastier than UKIP.

  23.  

    Apologies if this has been addressed elsewhere. (I couldn’t find it if it was.) Wales is poorer than Scotland, and more people voted for Brexit; both self-evident truths. Here’s another truth which isn’t dealt with here (perhaps you’ve discussed it elsewhere?): Among Wales’s 52% who voted to leave the EU are, presumably, the 200k (14%ish) who voted Ukip in the last GE. More than the combined number who voted for PC and any other Welsh nationalist party (of which I’m aware of some, but they do not field candidates across Wales). Anecdotally (and through numerous internet debates) I’ve heard that a lot of the Welsh Ukip vote comes from post-industrial Welsh youth. I’ve also noted that many (online) PC activists are Welsh youth (student age); often praising the EU, and expressing support for socialist policies – but still ultimately focused (as you might expect/hope) on the issue of Welsh nationalism. Personally I’m agnostic toward the subject (and nationalism generally); and I’m one of those Remain-voting socialism-favouring people you find so tiresome. But I agree that socialism doesn’t tend to “create wealth” so is not as appealing in Wales as in Scotland. Also, I wasn’t lucky enough to be raised with a coherent narrative of national allegiance, so I must at least try to be practical rather than romantic about these things.

    To cut a rambling prelude short: what future does Welsh nationalism have outside of PC’s social democracy if the right-wing nationalist space is being (pretty convincingly) occupied by a British nationalist party, and if the older Welsh nationalists feel alienated by PC’s 21st century incarnation?

    I’ve never seen such a thing as centrist Welsh nationalism, and I doubt I will any time soon.

    AV

    •  

      You’re correct to observe that UKIP got more votes than Plaid Cymru at the 2015 UK general election, I wrote about it here and here. Though I don’t know why you think there are other Welsh nationalist parties. There are, unfortunately, none. (You aren’t a regular visitor to this blog, are you?)

      I’m not sure that “a lot of the Welsh Ukip vote comes from post-industrial Welsh youth”; I think there’s general agreement that the UKIP vote in Wales is concentrated in post-industrial or poorer urban areas among older voters. Though you’re right about Plaid members – of all age groups – being left-leaning and EU supporting, though whether they’re nationalist is a matter for debate.

      Finally, what UKIP has achieved is to either detach large numbers of Labour voters or else mobilise those who were – and remain – disillusioned with politics. If a flaky bunch of English oddballs can achieve this then the votes of those that UKIP has energised are up for grabs.

      I have never seen “such a thing as centrist Welsh nationalism” either. But if such a beast rears its head, rest assured that I shall smite it.

      •  

        I’ve visited (the blog) a few times. I don’t often agree, but it’s always an interesting read.

        I was referring (by other Welsh nationalist parties) mainly to Plaid Glyndŵr; but now I’ve looked them up again they might be a one-man band? Any others listed on Wikipedia seem to be defunct, or at least haven’t kept up their www payments… Anyway, thanks for the links. I’ll have a read around.

        •  

          I have to report that Plaid Glyndŵr is no more. Dennis Morris tells me he has joined Plaid Cymru, is now a town councillor in Abergwaun (/Fishguard), and is standing in May’s county council elections. I wish him well.

  24.  

    At the risk of repeating myself (what else is Welsh nationalism is these shitty times than a repetition of the obvious to people who are afraid to hear it?): if Plaid Cymru cannot mobilise the sort of fed-up shat-on sidelined and ignored masses who voted UKIP with a decent positive message about how we should run our own country, then someone else will have to. That movement may be a broad Independent movement, it may be a revamped nationalist party.
    But Plaid’s failure to use the anger and the dejection in Labour heartlands to its advantage by pissing about with tiny political detail and right-on irrelevances is the big story of the last 15 years or so.
    People who vote UKIP are variously British nationalists, self-hating welsh who dislike foreigners but attack anyone who questions the right of the English to lord it over us, xenophobes, and haters of multiculturalism. But among them there are enough people who – given a proper Welsh nationalist narrative – would be willing to lend their hand to the struggle.
    On a separate issue, anyone who thinks Marine Le Pen, mired in corruption as was her holocaust denying father, is the answer is asking the wrong question. You hitch your flag to that wagon and you’re fucked.
    This blog – and Big Gee – are Welsh nationalists on the right of the spectrum. That’s fine – you have views (about the English and Westminster) which are essentially the same as mainstream conservatism in England has about immigration and Europe and gets called ‘sensible’. But in Wales you’re called ‘extreme’ because you’re not allowed to criticise the English. In fact, in Wales the only form of ‘racism’ that is politically policed is anything that might be perceived as ‘anti-English’. That was the essence of the anti-Cymuned campaign, which was a disgrace to our so called media and which showed the Labour party’s true duplicity and nastiness.
    I think waving soundbites about how great Ms Le Pen is is an own goal for any nationalist movement, and plays into the hands of the bastards.

    •  

      Five or ten years ago you might have been right about the Le Pen ‘own goal’, but things have moved on. There’s a wide acceptance a) that the traditional political system is corrupt and b) that the media lies. In addition, what we have today that was not available when Cymuned was being turned over is the internet and social media competing with the aforementioned discredited MSM and newspapers few under the age of 50 read.

      Where you’re right is in suggesting that Plaid Cymru missed a trick in not latching on to the anger and hopelessness in the Valleys and other less prosperous areas, those seats where UKIP gained its support. But then, as I’ve explained, Plaid Cymru is a political party designed not to succeed. The term I used was dog in the manger. And that explains your “right-on irrelevances” that Plaid Cymru would rather focus on.

  25.  

    off topic, well not entirely, I read elsewhere that the British Armed Forces are about 10 billion short of funds mostly due to dwindling inventories and expensive replacements. While I appreciate that defence is a key area for UK especially as we have sometimes gone out of our way to get involved in other people’s shit, I find this kind of frantic calls for “top ups” offensive. True the UK needs conventional and specialist capability to anticipate and withstand some of the post Cold War developments, despite their fingersprints being all over much of the original causes. I remain utterly mystified where the justification for next generation nuclear lies. And therein lies the big clues about how the defence industry tail is wagging the government dog.

    Just imagine how much of that cost saving could be diverted into an array of service provision and improvements for the ordinary punter throughout the UK. A decent sense of priorities at UK level might even prompt some of us so called die hard nats to regard our Anglo neighbours and their government with a touch more affection.

    But, it’s just not in their nature, is it ?

  26.  

    I agree with most of what you say David Jones, but I would take issue with you over a few points.

    1. Regarding Marine Le Pen. I lauded her on her stance against the New World Order (NWO). To bring in things like her father’s alleged holocaust denial is a cheap shot. She actually threw her own father out of her party for various reasons like that. Her stance against the EU is welcome, she evidently sees the bigger picture and the dangers of the totalitarian tip-toe that is manifested in the formation and increasing powers of the EU in order to further the NWO agenda – hence the reason she directly aimed her attack at “The New World Order” specifically. Putin has reflected this same rhetoric, because they are both not in on the conspiracy and are not afraid to expose it. We on the other hand ridicule this, because of the propaganda we are fed via the western governments mainstream media, hence the reason for the smoke screen intended to hide the reality, by muddying the waters with nonsense debates during the EU referendum campaigns. Nearly half of the population fell for it on the one hand, and the remainder fell for it on the other side. The fact is Brexit won, but not because the ‘out’ voters voted for the right reasons. Both sides are in the dark when it comes to the public understanding of what the EU is actually about. Conversely, Marine Le Pen is waking people up in France to the reality. You really have to stop believing the images projected by the media of people like Le Pen. Believe the truth instead and repeat it. She is not a monster, she is not a frothing Nazi. She is seen as one of the biggest threats to the cabal in the shadows who’s plans are being messed up by the likes of Le Pen & Putin. Why do you think there is so much ‘anti’ hysteria being whipped up about Russia and Le Pen’s France? Farrage on the other hand, despite his acclaimed opposition to the EU is still the darling of the British media and gets invitations to work for Trump. Why? Because he poses no threat – his ranting is safe, because it simply revolves around simplistic racist xenophobia and nothing else. Finally do you think that the huge following she is attracting in France is because all those French people are raving fascists? Concern about dictatorial fascism should be focused on what the EU intends to be – a regional fascist part of the proposed world government – where ALL freedoms are taken away.

    2. Plaid Cymru. They are washed up and as much use as a condom in a convent. There is a screaming need for something else. What’s needed is a party that not only fights for a free nation that rules itself, but one that is not afraid to tell the truth. Running to hide behind the sofa for fear of what people initially think of their policies is suicide for any party, and people eventually get turned off. Cowardly actions from people who won’t stick up for a principle & won’t fight for their own cause, are despised by their enemies & despised by their own. That’s why people like Le Pen are admired, regardless of what people say or think, Marine and her party stick to their guns, set out their stall and then set about convincing others of their policies. It can take a long time, but if your arguments are valid you will eventually succeed – the SNP have displayed the same traits and it’s been paid back a thousand fold for them in the support they now enjoy.

    3. Cymuned. I was one of the founding members. We got crucified on a daily basis by the Trinity Mirror’s ‘Welsh Mirror’ mainly by Paul Starling who was their resident vitriolic mouthpiece. We spent most of our time justifying our cause and rebutting lies propagated by Starling & Co. We didn’t have a media outlet for our voice. The only chance we got was when we were interviewed by biased journalists who were there to list accusations against us, to try to show us up as racists and fascists, and ridicule our defence of what we had set out to do. But the real nail in our coffin was Plaid’s back stabbing and reluctance to publicly support us.

    So, no, I don’t think supporting Marine Le Pen is an own goal for any nationalist movement in the times we live in. If you can’t tell the world what you think for fear of persecution then your finished.

    And finally, again, there is no ‘right’,’left’ or ‘centre’. It boils down to what your principle is, whether you tell the truth, whether you fight for justice and against inequality. Save the directions of right, left & centrefor Bernie the Bolt they don’t belong in politics (assuming the readers of this blog can remember who Bernie was)!

    •  

      I do know who B-the-B was, you won’t believe it but he was my cousin! He later lived for some years in Rhos Tryfan (IIRC) and worked as a milkman. The Merched got hold of his wife and taught her Welsh, and the schools did the same with the kids. All to no avail unfortunately, he trained to be a teacher, moved to the English midlands and became a bit of Tory, at which point I lost touch with him. All true, you really couldn’t make it up … 🙂

      •  

        A small world isn’t it? Not an extreme ‘RIGHT’ wing Tory I hope!! As I’ve already said this ‘right’, ‘left’ & ‘centre’ business is a load of crap. Shaking it off is quite a task – everyone wants to live in an abstract labelled, ”political guide for dummies” environment. Life ain’t like that.

  27.  

    Mmmm… I don’t think so about Marine Le Pen, and I’ve spent quite a bit of time recently in FN-run ex-industrial cities (like Hayange), and they’re pretty obviously places where people of the wrong colour/religion are made to feel bad and excluded and worse. As I say, my politics are different from yours, and I think the point of immigration (which I generally approve of) is to vary cultures and not make them the same – that’s why I objected to being called ‘racist’ back in the Cymuned days when all I was saying was that migration, for Wales, was not creating some rainbow nation (don’t laugh Jack), but a white English monoglot monoculture that didn’t just ignore the Welsh and Wales but wanted to eradicate them/it. We must be the only country that reckons changing communities from bilingual to monoglot is ‘progressive’. The reason is, of course, that 2 is more than 1 except when the 1 in question is English culture and language.
    That’s why I supported Cymuned, and why wrote to that shithead Paul Starling to tell him what a terrible thing he was doing.
    But I don’t believe your – and Jack’s – theory of ‘trickledown radicalism’, whereby anything that shakes up the status quo is in itself good. The forces liberated by Brexit, Trump and Le Pen are ones that will streamroller people like us in countries like ours, because what trickles down is authoritarianism and scapegoating.

    •  

      Why do you approve of immigration? I have no objection to small-scale immigration, but at what point do you say ‘Enough!’?

      I would accept genuine refugees, yet it’s clear from the hordes of unattached young men one sees in Germany and elsewhere that these are economic migrants, at best. The system has been abused with the connivance of Merkel and the others that Le Pen rightly condemns.

      I’m not sure what you mean by “trickledown radicalism”. My position is that a people in our position, on the point of assimilation, when confronted with uncertainty, even chaos, might come to believe that radical constitutional change is desirable. Because let’s be honest, Plaid Cymru is going nowhere.

  28.  

    I think the general rule is that immigration is ok if it’s enriching and assimilative; it changes the place it’s moved rather less than it is changed by moving there (i.e. learns the language, identifies with the culture, respects the history and uniqueness of said place). My experience is that approximately 20% (and that’s a generous estimate) of the English who move here do this, and yet they all expect it of their own ‘guests’, and have the tabloids and Westminster to enforce it.
    So if that’s controlled immigration, then so be it. Ideally I’d like a Wales that decided who it wanted and why – and wasn’t an OAP-magnet and good-life destination. But for that we need to stop being a brain-drain nation and making ourselves attractive to the nearly-dead from England. Rhodri Morgan, whose property rental empire you should invesitgate – started it with the free prescriptions crap and free bus passes that Plaid immediately aped.
    But Brexit has given the Wales-haters and the colonists the upper hand, and this – mixed with Labour’s shitty nepotistic rule in Cardiff Bay – has made direct rule from London much more likely than any Welsh coming to consciousness you envisage.
    It’s not about who’s right or wrong , on our nationalist side, it’s about where the momentum lies. Brexit puts the momentum on the side of the assimilators.

    •  

      The momentum may be on the side of the Brexit assimilators, but we both know how insensitive these people are, and we know they’re guaranteed to overs-step the mark and antagonise enough of the natives to provoke a reaction. We just have to be ready to capitalise.

  29.  

    Take it down to it’s lowest common denominator – the family unit. You have your wife and three children in a 5 bedroom house. Now you put a visiting couple from a different country in your fifth bedroom – no problem, nothing much changes and you enjoy each other’s company. You also thoroughly enjoy the experience of learning about a new language and culture. Your visitors learn your language out of respect and and you are all friends in perfect peace and harmony.

    Now put up another five visiting couples from another country & a few children, on the settee, on the fold up bed a couple in the attic and another two or more on the floor. How do you think that would effect your family life? All still happy – enjoying each other’s company? I think not.

    It’s a matter of a watershed point. At what point do the visitors take over? When it comes to colonisation then your whole house is taken over and you have to sleep in the shed in the garden and you’re forced to accept that the language and culture in your home is now that of the ‘visitors’. Is that fair? Is that good for relations? Is everyone happy and comfortable – including you, your wife & three children in the shed? Would you complain and then run the risk of being called a racist by asking them to leave?

    It’s not rocket science. Look David, you frown upon Marine Le Pen because it’s the popular thing to do in the UK – or more accurately it’s your programmed conditioning through what you hear and see on telly or read in the newspapers. It’s not the popular thing to do and you fear others may frown upon your views and shun you.

    I am more pragmatic and like to see the big picture – I guess Jac is the same. Where we differ from you is that we make up our own minds, and are not influenced by the thoughts planted in our heads by others – analysing facts is different, if the facts you are presented with are correct, then you should be open minded enough to change. Personally I couldn’t give a flying f**k what the majority think, or what they may call me. If I’m convinced I’m right in these matters I won’t change simply to please others – it’s at that point you give up your freedom as an individual, more importantly you’ve handed your thinking over to someone else and lost your own freedom of thought. When it happens in school it’s called submitting to peer pressure in order to be acceptable to those around you.

  30.  

    That’s OK big G, but you currently *are* the majority, Brexit-wise, and though I know you don’t give a fuck about them, you are them, so let’s see you show us how it directly benefits us. I don’t see that, you haven’t shown me, and my understanding of Le Penism is that it is intent on destroying all parts of France that aren’t classic republican white and French. By which I mean not Breton, Basque etc. The idea that Marine L (as opposed to Marine A, who is the latest anglo-poster-boy) will solve the problems of Europe’s stateless nations is delusional.

    My own immigration experience was exactly as you put it: Welsh speaking community in NW Wales in the 70s and 80s. A few English came in, equally divided between the people who joined in and learned and became part of what we were (that family is now totally Welsh-speaking – and totally atypical, sadly), and the white settler types. The latter were shits, but we managed because they were hated by us as well as their fellow anglos, who were ashamed of being associated with them.

    40 years later, it’s the white settlers who run the place. That’s the way it works, as I don’t need to tell you of all people, and any attempt to counter that narrative was spiked by Plaid cowards in the 1990s/2000s.

    So I have seen the close-up pragmatic aspect, and I know you have too. I just don’t think the solution is with ethnic obsessives and centralising French paranoiacs whose world view is an extremely repressive mix of Robespierran bloodletting and minority-destruction. The only variations people like LePen want in French culture is on a cheeseboard.

    But I am up for reviving the narrative of too many of one kind of non-integrating, anti-welsh colonists in my country, and what we can do to stop the quislingocracy that calls itself a government from ruining our chances – and I don’t need Marine Le Pen to help me.

    •  

      A few times now you’ve said that Plaid Cymru destroyed Cymuned. I’d like to know the evidence you have, and where specifically the finger points.

      Reverting to Marine Le Pen, and what Big Gee is saying about the media and brainwashing. Here’s a picture from the BBC website a short time ago reporting on a TV presidential debate. Now the BBC must have had thousands of pictures to choose from but it plumped for this one showing her isolated and ignored. I wonder why.

      Marine Le Pen

      •  

        I find this photo/still such a classic.

        I seem to recall almost exactly the same situation when the GE [or was it Brexit] was being debated – Leanne, Nicola and the Green lady [now vanished to oblivion?] having a group femini hug leaving Farage out on his own [in the cold/ignored] – looks exactly the same here?

        I do hope Le Pen wins just for the shock value [and at last something to bump Trump [and any associated cr*p eg Putin mania] off the international news management agenda].

    •  

      David. I think your recall of Penlleŷn forty years ago is familiar to all of us. In my primary school days we had two families that had arrived from the Midlands – not your typical modern immigrant, but farming types who bought a couple of small farms in the locality. Between them they had thirteen children in two local schools. Their children became fluent speakers and were totally integrated culturally (in fact a few of them became staunch nationalists in later life). One family had 4 boys & three girls, with the exception of one possibly, they all married local boys & girls. All their children were brought up in first language Welsh speaking homes. Total integration, total respect, no cracks. I would welcome that kind of healthy incomers in sensible numbers. No problem.

      I think you want to listen CAREFULLY to what Marine Le Pen has to say (that’s why I edited my post above to include a random video of her having an interview on ‘Hard Talk’). It is not what you assume from the propaganda that you are fed on a daily basis, by people like the British Bullshit Corporation. She is not anti immigration, she is a patriot, someone who does not want her country, language, culture and identity swallowed up politically by Europe or by migrants that overflow into her country and who are changing the face of her beloved France. Is there anything wrong with that? She is not calling for a total ban on immigration, just control over it, to stop it over running her country, in exactly the same way as there should be a limit to the number of foreigners from England that have colonised Cymru. Both you and I have already given examples of why limited numbers work, but when they outnumber the locals we all know the consequences. What is wrong with Marine Le Pen wanting sovereignty back and the freedom to run France by the French? She is not an imperialist coloniser, so my guess is the Bretons & Basques could be dealt with better by her than the ones who have ruled France in the past.

      What you have to realise is that the NWO – that Le Pen refers to – have an agenda to wipe out individuality and sovereignty of nations, so that a world government, with a world military and total control of people can be realised. It’s not an accident that the agents of the cabal are encouraging this total mix up in order to dilute and do away with individual nations. It’s as obvious as the nose on your face. Surely you can see this in action in the region that has been labelled the EU.

      Jac: an excellent example of propaganda at work. It totally typifies what I was saying about the MSM. The mission is to blacken Le Pen because the powers that be are scared shitless of her. She’s a very big thorn in their side at the moment.

      Regarding PC & Cymuned. Plaid simply joined forces with the Brit parties to attack us, most prominent amongst those being Labour. They distanced themselves from the movement, chastised members for joining and doled out punishment to people like me and Seimon Glyn – very much a reflection of the way they treated McEvoy lately. The main instigators of this treatment were the likes of Cynog Dafis (fearing that we would upset his beloved hippy Greens, whom he idolised) and others like Ieuan Wyn Jones, Helen Mary etc. etc. Interestingly, Elfyn Llwyd, Wigley and some others just kept quiet with no committal, but their silence spoke volumes, they didn’t join in with the lynch mob. If only Plaid had woken up to the opportunity we could have got somewhere, but as usual they chose to put a pillow over the baby’s face to suffocate it as quickly as possible.

      At the time I was a vice president in the party – I resigned shortly afterwards after spouting publicly that I thought Cymru had become a dumping ground for England’s oddballs, social misfits and society dropouts. Seimon Glyn toed the line, many others among the foot soldiers resigned including people like Dr. Meredydd (Merêd) Evans. Seimon Brooks also resigned, but I hear that “the dog returned to it’s vomit” in his case, as he seems to have rejoined recently after many years on the outside. ‘Brwcsyn’ was & still is a big friend of mine – but I’m not my brother’s keeper unfortunately. Plaid repeated the process again when we formed the regional party Llais Ceredigion to topple Dai Lloyd Evans’ Independents dictatorship at the council. As you rightly say, Plaid are the clasic ‘Dog In The Manger’ party.

      •  

        “she [le Pen]is a patriot, someone who does not want her country, language, culture and identity swallowed up politically by Europe or by migrants that overflow into her country and who are changing the face of her beloved France.”

        t beats me why Marine should provide any hope or inspiration for any Welsh nationalist.
        She ‘s against devolution and decentralization in France and her party’s manifesto says that they will be reversed. To imagine that she’d have anything but contempt for any desire by Bretons or Basques for autonomy is ludicrous. To imagine she wouldn’t stamp down on any individuals or movement that attempted to break up France is naiive beyond.

        She’s also on record saying that she is against the country’s Regional Languages Charter. Which was “forced” on France by the EU. The EU presumably getting their NWO masters’ instructions to “wipe out individuality” completely arse about face.

        There’s no place in le Pen’s France for any language culture or people that aren’t French.
        We’ve got the English equivalent here. She’s a pin up for groups like the English Defense League.

        •  

          Good points vis-a-vis her attitude to minority nationalities. But the point remains that a politician must stand up for what he or she regards as their country’s national interests. She does that. Nicola Sturgeon does that. No doubt some would put Theresa May is in the same category.

          The problem outlined here, in post after post, comment after comment, is that Wales lacks such a leader.

          •  

            Different people will have different ideas on leadership style. That’s to be expected.
            However it defies logic that Welsh nationalists or indeed anyone other than some British nationalists in the UK, would point to Marine le Pen as being a role model or applaud her achievements. le Pen is not a nationalist but an imperialist.

            We have many newly formed nation states and want to be states in Europe and there are politicians and leaders whose style and methods are worth emulating.
            However I have to blunt here and say that I think this near fixation with le Pen indicates an ignorance of and disinterest in the politics of Europe beyond the names of those controversial ones that get put out by the media.

        •  

          I presume that you can provide evidence to support your comments and allegations ‘di-enw’? Or are you expressing an alarmist knee-jerk reaction because you have been brainwashed into believing what you assume Marine Le Pen’s party is about, by listening to others?

          You may be surprised to learn that it is the very same reaction by Brit parties in England to the words SNP, Sinn Féin, or Plaid (although it’s only the last one that itself reacts with a knee tremble – in fear of being attacked in that way).

          Pick the odd one out, and no it’s not Marine Le Pen, just because she’s anti EU. Here’s a clue – three are strong and stick up for their principals, one spends most of her time hiding behind the sofa.

          •  

            Have a look at her party’s manifesto and she’s on record with her own statements regarding her opposition to supporting regional languages in France.

            Marine le Pen’s politics are very different to those of Plaid, SF or the SNP. Marine le Pen is an imperialist not a nationalist.
            If you think she is a nationalist then I guess the loss Brezhoneg and Euskara doesn’t concern you. All in the good cause if French nationalism(sic). But the Bretons and Basques will still be able to wear their costumes and sing their songs as it’s good for tourism. Bit like what we’re heading for in Cymru perhaps.

            You may be surprised to learn that there are things going on in the gap between Welsh affairs and the machinations of the “New World Order”.

  31.  

    Came across this slightly whimsical warning against the dangers of Wales being left behind with England after Scottish Indy. It’s good that people are waking up to the threat :

    https://ygwladgarwr.wordpress.com/2017/03/31/sink-or-swim/

    •  

      Very good that. It should be compulsory reading for all Europhile ‘Nats’. Because beyond that sea is an ocean called the EU – that’ll drown the strongest swimmers!

      Thinking that the EU protects us from the ravages of colonisation and assimilation by England is pie in the sky. The EU is designed to sink ALL national identities within it’s grasp – even the largest ones who are very good swimmers!

  32.  

    not an April Fool joke, but just read another announcement about the threat of job cuts at a “major” Welsh University – TrinityStDavidsTomCobbly&all – which has been spending money like water over recent years. It has plans to continue doing so and looks like nobody, just nobody, is exercising any restraint, oversight or governance over the muppets steering this institution.
    Now you might say what has this got to do with any debate on Independence – or Rhyddid is better word -well it’s quite evident that the umbrella of UK, EU and WAG/Cynulliad funding is not being used with any degree of vigilance except where a scandal threatens to break out – like Egin – and there is a rush to smooth things over and present some sort of coherence.
    Universities have long been converted into degree factories with some bits of research excellence spread around to provide camouflage for all the spivs and wasters hanging about pretending to be academics. Worse than that they have been major factors in supressing native Welsh influences in towns like Carmarthen, Lampeter and Aberystwyth. Nobody on this blog is likely to be fooled by protestations that it’s all part of some “broad internationalist melting pot of great minds” when its main themes are all about the promotion of Anglo American values and culture. I regard Cardiff as pretty much a goner anyway, and Swansea seems to be heading off in the same direction, again having spent huge capital sums on a new campus ( which was needed anyway ) but likely to become a means of cementing its good old Anglo Brit credentials. Can anyone tell me what is happening at Bangor ? or Glyndwr at Wrexham ?

    •  

      Dafis – I can tell you pretty much what is happening at Bangor. There are some real gems hiding away at Bangor, doing first-class research with a genuine commitment to teaching and the welfare of the students. But over the last three years or so something very odd has happened there – a group of sharp-elbowed not very bright deeply unpleasant people have gained control of the institution and now have the upper hand. As far as I can work out – and I worked there until about four years ago and still have mates there who are being crushed under the present regime – these ruthless mediocrities are networked together, helping each other up the greasy pole and what is more worrying they are producing an awful lot of research that is suspect and involves huge conflicts of interest. The main problem seems to be centred around the healthcare/mental health/psychology ‘research’ – I have had my eye on that lot for years and a lot of us knew that some of them were involved in very questionable practices. One of the worst offenders, a Professor Jo Rycroft-Malone, was promoted to one of the most senior jobs in the institution, namely Pro-Vice Chancellor for Research. This was not a good idea. I take an interest in research fraud and I have recently blogged about some of the most outrageous examples known to me happening at Bangor. I don’t know how the present Vice-Chancellor has missed what is happening – he has had a big push on recruiting overseas students and forging links with China (his wife was Chinese and was well-connected with institutions there), so I’m wondering if perhaps he has taken his eye off the ball at home? Or simply didn’t know who was dodgy and has promoted the wrong people? But to anyone who knows anything about healthcare research at Bangor and of course the dreadfully troubled Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board which is a ‘partner’ in much of this research, what is going on up there is very worrying indeed.

      •  

        thank you DrSally. Not completely surprised to hear that Bangor like others are playing fast and loose within certain disciplines. However to do so in an area like mental health, or indeed any health related subject, is especially hazardous. Transferring the output of dodgy research into a real world clinical environment is about as bad as you could get, barring torturing patients for a spot of late shift entertainment ( indeed it’s probably one and the same ! ) . Waste and fraudulent application of funds – 2 major curses within academia and noone has the bottle to do anything about it. Dear old Kirsty has certainly gone native within the Labour regime so that’s the education side of things well and truly sunk, and as for Vaughan Gethin well he’s probably enjoying the fruits of his job, has access to private health care and couldn’t really give a shit about the public’s discontent and distress about service as long as it doesn’t eat far into his party’s share of seats in Cynulliad/WAG. Anyway he can count on Plaid to prop his mob up if they’re short of a couple.

        •  

          You are quite right, some of this very questionable ‘research’ has been used as the basis for ‘interventions’ – and the really terrifying thing is that someone involved, the PVC for Research at Bangor, Jo Rycroft-Malone, is Chair of one of the most influential committees at NICE! Anyone with half a brain who has followed the activities of that woman and the practices of the Healthcare Sciences School at Bangor which until recently she ‘led’ would smell a whole pack of rats. Furthermore, I e mailed Mark Drakeford when he was Health Minister to blow the whilstle on one of the biggest possible research frauds that Rycroft-Malone has been involved in – my e mail was not acknowledged and a few weeks later Drakeford appeared in a press release promoting the questionable research that I had alerted him to. It is completely inexcusable, Drakeford is a Professor of Social Sciences and he knows what dodgy research looks like and this particular research stinks. This is widely known at Bangor, the research concerned was viewed as laughable for years until it caught the imagination of a number of celebrities including Ruby Wax and it is now very big business indeed. Everyone who remembers the original ‘clinical trials’ knew that it was a case of the King’s New Clothes, but no-one had the guts to raise concerns and it is now a monster out of control. The universities that have latterly climbed on board with this now global research would crap themselves if they knew about the history of this ‘miracle cure’…

          •  

            “…..Drakeford is a Professor of Social Sciences and he knows what dodgy research looks like…..”. Social Science ? more like Social Studies I would argue. For most of the last 100 years a mixed bag of Economists, Sociologists, Social Psychologists etc etc have aspired to inflate the validity of their activities by attaching the “Science” label to their endeavours. However much of their activity flounders when it comes to basic quantification and numeracy without adding on any sophisticated maths where it then spins out hopelessly. To ensure any hypothesis retains validity one has to heap assumption upon assumption which of course reduces the scope for value + accuracy in making any useful predictions. Just check out recent predictions of all colours of economists and I’m sure that the predictions of sociologists are equally dubious.

            So, despite Drakeford being possibly one of the more decent Labour members I don’t think he’s a stranger to defective research if he majored in those particular academic “disciplines”.

  33.  

    So the thread starts off saying independence shouldn’t be about socialism or Brexit. Fair enough as an argument.

    It ends up advocating support for Le Pen and saying immigration is bad.

    Fuck’s sake guys. It reads as insane.

    People like Dafydd Wigley are about defending Europe from the likes of Le Pen.

    •  

      So who promoted you to the rank of moderator for this blog? If you don’t like the direction in which the comments meander, then you have the total freedom to go and read something different elsewhere. Simple.

      So immigration is so good that the unfettered in migration into Cymru from across Clawdd Offa has absolutely no effect on us as a nation?

      Since when has Dafydd Wigley taken on the mantle of being the defender of Europeans against the leaders they choose?

      Stop throwing tantrums. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen Martin.

      •  

        I won’t leave, I enjoy the debate, just saying the trajectory of the comments reads as crazy. It’s a bit like “Yes Cymru shouldn’t be pro-Europe or socialist…by the way we support Le Pen”. That’s not centre-right nationalism. They are an actual ex-fascist party.

        People support Welsh independence for alot of different reasons and should work together, but anything further right than conservatives/centre-right is dodgy and gets people’s backs up.

        Alot of your disagreement with Yes Cymru might be based on having a different worldview.

        •  

          Martin, all pro-Welsh views are welcome here, even the occasional, but thoughtful, anti-Welsh view. The only people I turn away are anti-Welsh trolls. Thankfully, this blog is well enough known now, and my position clear enough, to ensure that we see very few of these buggers.

        •  

          Do please explain to me Martin what is a “not centre-right nationalism. They are an actual ex-fascist party“.

          More importantly, can you clarify for me what the term “further right than conservatives/centre-right” is please?

          Can you quantify these terms? Because I believe they are abstract tags planted in gullible people’s minds. They don’t actually MEAN anything.

          Now if you say “patriot, with strong views about . . . . ” that is something tangeable that projects a factual image in my head.

          •  

            It’s not a huge secret or anything. FN was a fascist party. The centre-right in France are represented by a different tradition and party, currently with Francois Fillon as their candidate.

            These aren’t made up badges but real political identities.

            •  

              Perhaps you misunderstood my question. DEFINE what RIGHT, CENTRE & LEFT actually MEAN in politics.

              Try again.

            •  

              FN still is a fascist party, but has done a makeover on itself so that it appears more moderate. The BNP did something similar, but it still didn’t change the fact that it is a fascist party, now thankfully a shadow of its former self. Le Pen is just as unsavoury a character as Griffin, if you scratch below the surface.

              Cast back to the Germany of the 1930s and you see a similar process at work within the Nazi party, as they realised that they had to moderate their message in order to get voted into power.

              Don’t get me wrong, much as I detest Le Pen and her ilk, I do acknowledge that she is can be a very sophisticated operator, when required. It won’t be printed anywhere in any Front National party manifesto, but the nastiness will be there nonetheless. The BNP made claims that they weren’t a racist party, but I don’t think most people believed them. It’s the same with Front National.

    •  

      Martin, Like many other critics you are very selective in your attacks on some of the scribblers on this blog.

      There is ample evidence across the country, and perhaps the countryside more than urban areas, that immigration has real potential for harm. As stated earlier on several occasions, in migrants of recent decades have little or no empathy with the indigenous culture and values. Indeed many dismiss it as being of little or no relevance, an impediment to the civilizing “mission” of the Anglo-Brit supremacy. True we get some fine examples of migrants who have adapted, adopted and succeeded in merging into the local identity and they will enrich it because of the way the go about their lives. Contrast our more recent experiences with migrations of the WW2 and immediate aftermath. There was a very enlightening series of Radio Cymru programmes last year, led I think by Beti George, which interviewed an assortment of older people who had either moved to Wales or been shifted here as evacuees. It was a joy to hear how those people had blended in, some still speaking Welsh with a distinct accent and hybrid vocabulary, but the essence of it was they had made the move and joined “the tribe”. Now this is exactly what the clique in Westminster wish to impose on immigrants to UK but have limited that demand to fluency in English as most of them will no doubt end up in English cities. Pity they can’t ask their own people to voluntarily engage in a similar process when moving to Wales, after all it’s merely about respecting identities and cultures. Isn’t it ?

      Now none of this demands support or respect for Le Pen or anyone else. The fact that some of our contributors see merit in her stance is a matter for them. I don’t need Le Pen to justify my take on things in Wales. I will wait and see how she and the FN behave towards our tribal cousins in Brittany and the Basque communities before I get the “hots” for her. However her willingness to challenge the edifices of Globalism ( be they NWO or EU or anything else ) is refreshing while Theresa May remains suspect, appearing more than a little mixed up being one who wanted to remain in the EU yet couldn’t resist the “top job” when it fell vacant.

      As for Wigley, there are people on here who are far more intimately acquainted with his history. Suffice to say that he was sidelined by a clique of silly, confused colleagues who had adopted a toxic blend of “causes” instead of keeping a clear focus on a series of strategic goals. Had Dafydd remained in a leadership role I suspect he would have been pro EU, BUT his tireless efforts would have steered his party to a stance where they would be far more energetic critics of the EU bureaucrats and their fraudster corporate chums. This present lot have swallowed the “EU good, anything else bad” mantra hook, line, and sinker.

  34.  

    I’ve had my say on Le Pen and immigration, and I suspect most of us are at one on the latter, and not on the former. What I will say re Wigley is this: Plaid dumped him just as the SNP dumped Salmond. The SNP saw that dumping Salmond was a catastrophe, Plaid saw that dumping Wigley was a catastrophe but persisted with IWJ. They then tried to sack IWJ to get Helen Mary Jones, and got him again, but weaker than before (if that’s possible).
    They then created a system which allowed glorified student politicians like Bethan Jenkins and others to take top places on list seats (despite, in Jenkins’s case being hundreds of votes behind the winner), while letting Wigley waste time in the wilderness. Then they let him on as a second list seat in an unwinnable area far too late, where he helped the vote but got nothing out of it himself, and was stil out of the assembly.
    Plaid preferred to lose and keep him out than win with him in it. They are incapable of learning from mistakes.They say Wales is not like Scotland. True, but it’s chicken and egg: Wales is not like Scotland because Plaid isn’t like the SNP.

    •  

      I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis of the Wigley affair DJ, with the exception, that in Wigley’s case, as opposed to the Salmond affair, he was removed by a coven led by one person, a very prominent and influential AM & former MP known locally in Ceredigion as ‘Y Cadno’. A Svengali character who wished to be the puppet master behind the throne. IWJ for his part was the fall guy. When things went badly wrong he got all the flack – Y Cadno was safely hidden behind the curtain. I was on the National Executive Committee of Plaid when this played out, I can also tell you that the same character was, at the time, totally in control of the ‘puppet’ that was chairing the NEC at the time, someone whom Y Cadno had groomed into the position of AM for Ceredigion, although she was totally inadequate for the job. ‘Nuff said. However I totally agree with you regarding the way Plaid never fall on their own sword and NEVER learn lessons from the past. More from stupidity than stubbornness perhaps.

      Regarding Marine Le Pen I’m with dafis on that one too, when he says:

      I don’t need Le Pen to justify my take on things in Wales. I will wait and see how she and the FN behave towards our tribal cousins in Brittany and the Basque communities before I get the “hots” for her“.

      I don’t think I have the ‘hots’ for her dafis (testosterone levels not quite as high as they used to be in the past, but still present!), but she’s mightily good looking for her age! Seriously, what you say is fair enough, I’m in a similar position, a key factor for me also is the way she treats our ‘tribal cousins in the future – should she gain power. As I’ve also said before, I will draw my OWN conclusions based on what she says and does, and NOT on the shit spouted by the MSM, which is designed to demonise her and her party for devious reasons. I will NOT hare off to tear her to pieces based on media opinions, but rather on her policies and arguments. The fact that the Front National was demonised during her father’s four decades in charge (some of it possibly well founded) does not mean that I will shy away from speaking my mind about the party his daughter now controls. Marine Le Pen, a former lawyer with a steely blue-eyed glare, is taking the party in a decidedly different direction. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and not the words of a corrupt, twisted, lying and devious media that’s working for the system’s political powers.

      What she has done is focused on the disastrous effect the EU has had on her country, and the greater disaster that involves unfettered mass in migration orchestrated by the EU of an alien culture which will inevitably dilute and eventuallyoverrun the host nation given enough time. Surely we can see that from what has happened in Cymru – with the colonising effect due to the numbers of Anglo Saxons that have poured over our borders. Or are we also in the same old mold as Plaid and don’t learn lessons from our past experience?

      However the BIG factor for me is the way she has targeted the NWO and the danger of this creeping tip toe into power of the globalist elites via the EU. They are the ones who run the media and the governments represented in Brussels. To do that she has a lot of courage and principle. She is wide eyed, incredibly intelligent and open minded. She is also aware of the reality, whilst others around her are walking blindly into the trap, or are malleable enough to accept the lies and deceit that they are spoon-fed.

      Finally, what I totally refuse to do is go with the crowd who have a herding mentality. A mob assembled with nothing more than inflammatory perceptions cooked up by others that’s fuelling their perceptions, whom I know can’t be trusted anyway. I certainly don’t fear other people’s reactions to my views – I leave that to Plaid and their ‘sheeple’ supporters.

      •  

        See this is why I think it’s nuts.

        The EU has not had a disastrous effect on France. All the great French leaders like De Gaulle, Mitterand supported it.

        France had and has a vast empire. Most migration into France is from former imperial territories, or from bits of overseas France.

        Hopefully Le Pen loses the election. There apparently is a Breton nationalist candidate standing in the first round.

        •  

          What de Gaulle wanted was an association of free and independent nations, l’Europe des patries. He would have opposed the centralising and homogenising thrust of today’s EU.

          You may be right about France’s imperial past and the fact that most immigrants come from former imperial possessions and overseas territories, but that neither explains nor justifies the current levels of immigration. Because Algeria and Vietnam were once part of the French empire does that mean that Algerians and Vietnamese still have the right to move to France? Or that one billion Indians still have the right to move to the UK?

          European colonialists – French, British and others – were forced out of those imperial possessions, and most visiting this blog would support anti-imperialist liberation struggles. But I’m intrigued to know why throwing Europeans out of their countries gives former colonial subjects the right to settle in Europe.

        •  

          What Charles de Gaulle and François Mitterrand supported was a far cry from what the EU is today. Old de Gaulle (a decorated first world war veteran) died in 1970, Mitterrand died in 1996. That’s a LONG time ago. Back then what they supported was an EEC (Common Market as we knew it originally). The EU is a totally different animal.

          Try talking to the people on the streets of France to see how they view how toxic the EU is for them in 2017.

          The governments of the EU and more especially those who are pushing the New World Order agenda have failed to pull the wool over the eyes of all their citizens. Some are wide awake to their machinations. It would have been helpful for the globalist elites to have considered this wise quote from Abraham Lincoln:

          “You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time”.

          Thankfully not all of us are as gullible as the more malleable in our midst. Whilst some have succumbed to the perceptions that have been planted in their brains of a false reality, others realise that true reality is something totally different. Think for yourself and be open minded. Don’t assume that anything that hasn’t been told to you by the ones you consider to be all powerful and wise is “nuts”.

          ALL nations – Cymru included – have a basic right to freedom, their own self determination and independence. That will never be the case if you submit yourself to the control of organisations like the EU and later the one world government – known as the New World Order. Check out Agenda 21 – is that the nightmare world you want to live in?

          An interesting little footnote that I forgot to mention above.
          General de Gaulle (“Le Plus Grand Français de tous les temps“) was also influenced by his uncle, also called Charles de Gaulle, who was a historian and passionate Celticist who wrote books and pamphlets advocating the union of the Welsh, Scots, Irish and Bretons into one people. That fits in nicely into what Jac mentioned in the previous comment, that what de Gaulle wanted was an association of free and independent nations.

          Incidentally, Le Pen is a “Breton”, a person from Brittany, a Celt – not a lot of people know that.

          •  

            “Incidentally, Le Pen is a “Breton”, a person from Brittany, a Celt – not a lot of people know that.”

            Well I can’t say that you don’t make it easy for me.
            http://galliawatch.blogspot.co.uk/2007/02/brittany-against-marine-le-pen.html#!/2007/02/brittany-against-marine-le-pen.html

            “Twice, the vice-president of the “Front National” has questioned the place of the “Breton” language in Brittany. These attacks against the use of “Breton” were uttered on January 21, 2007 during the TV show Riposte, and later that day in a message at the Novopress website.

            For ADSAV, the “Breton” people’s party, these remarks are totally unacceptable. By attempting to link the promotion of our language to some so-called dangerous political agenda, by speaking of “tribalism”, Madame Le Pen is only serving the same rotten soup that France has always served. This bitter soup would have us bow before a State whose presence on our land is not legitimate, on the pretext that it would bring us universal virtues. These imaginary virtues change from era to era and from one politician to another, but for us, it’s always the same: they want us to disappear!”

            I know you don’t recognize labels but for your information ADSAV who are a Breton nationalist party are usually described as right or very right wing by political commentators.

  35.  

    I’m with Martin on this one, and Le Pen’s Bretonism is something he’s show nothing but ignorance of or contempt for. Marine Le Pen’s Breton interest is negligible. That stuff is fantasy – the FN does indeed have a history of regionalism (it was v popular in the midi, and still is even now, for reasons of action francaise starting there in the 1890s, and it’s popular in the north now for the opposite reasons – industrial and post-industrial Valleys’-type places) but it won’t tolerate anything other than French France – or what it imagines that to be.
    I’ve said enough on this anyway, so I leave it there: the French FN support(ed) French colonialism but won’t pay the price; they were (mostly) Vichyists, and were happy to deport their jews and others to camps; they continue with an unfortunate hatred of people with different skin colours and they’re (at least) as corrupt and financially greedy as anyone they say they’re better than. They have a fondness for Putin (turkeys for Xmas there), and they like Trump (who is a corrupt liar and fantastist). The idea that they’d be interested in France’s linguistic and cultural diversity is lunacy. None of the people from Cymuned I knew back in the day were in any way like that, and nor, I believe, is Mr G ab O.
    But I agree that our job is with the here and now. It involves getting rid of the Labour party in Wales (as effectively as it’s got rid of itself in England), and finding a way of doing politics that believes in independence regardless of party, but is not above going after specific instances of Labour party misrule by going after specfic people and institutions – that is Jac’s forte. It should also stop Plaid’s softly softly don’t frighten the horses politics and say to people: do you want to be part of a radically unequal rich boys’ nation, ruled by tories in the SE of England who threaten war with Spain, or do you want something else?
    I’d like to be part of Europe as it happens, but not part of the UK. To fight people like me while standing alongside loonies who complain about passport colours is the death of anything we commonly want.

  36.  

    All that I’ve pointed out is that the demonising of a political party – any party or individual – that does not conform to the ‘norm’ is the standard practice for the MSM, who are the minders of the political classes and the elites that rule and control our lives. They have been caught red-handed, over and over feeding you lies & bullshit. How many times do you need them to prove their credentials to you?

    By your reactions one would think that I’m a leading member of the Front National! What your hissy fits prove is that you are slaves to the propaganda that you read & hear – hence the reason you react the way you do, You have been programmed to react in that way, use your intelligence and snap out of it. Open up your minds and see the big picture. All I’ve seen from you so far is the regurgitating of propaganda that you have been fed & swallowed. Don’t allow others to do the judging – do it yourself, based on your own knowledge and the evidence that you have seen, heard or experienced first hand. DON’T flaunt preconceived judgements that you have arrived at from second hand information from others.

    I simply stated a fact, the Le Pens are from Brittany – they are Bretons & Celts end of. I’m not interested in the shite that is written about them from dubious sources. If Marine Le Pen becomes president I will – as I’ve already said – judge her then on how she deals with the Celtic regions in France. If it’s negative I will be the first to react against her. If on the other hand she carries out the policies and the views that she has expressed then I will applaud her. What I won’t do is base my judgement on preconceived perceptions, based on negative propaganda by the mainstream. I’ve been on the receiving end of that nonsense and I’m buggered if I’ll inflict it on others.

    As for what you say di-enw “I know you don’t recognize labels…” absolutely right. The labels I am referring to are the ‘right/left/centre’ labels that are simply abstract pejorative labels that have no meaning. E.g. what exactly does far left or extreme right wing actually mean? Fuck all. They are labels made up to pigeon hole people’s political views, either to make others view them as acceptable or in, as I said, a pejorative way which makes them sound bad and puts them in a negative light to be pelted by the weak minded stone throwers. I’ve explained this so many times. If you don’t understand what I’m talking about – just drop it. I’ve already asked Martin to explain what he means by ‘right, left & centre’ in an earlier comment. I notice he hasn’t replied. Perhaps one of you can explain it on his behalf.

    Finally as for you David, you deride Trump and Putin as if you know them personally. As you obviously don’t, on whose analysis are you basing your judgement? I’m certainly not a Trump fan (as I’ve said before he is probably just another mask on the same face). He has been in power for such a short time that I cannot judge him, and I’m going to withhold my judgement of him – like I am on Marine Le Pen – until I can see evidence of his and her outworking. I will NOT shoot my mouth off or join in the herd mentality to deride him based on what others assume about him. You seem to have a particular vent for accusations without proof but just based on hearsay. You even teeter on the brink of putting me in the same squalid camp as Trump supporters and UKIP/Tory Brexiteers, just because I voted to leave the EU. However I’ve explained why I voted to leave, but that doesn’t suit does it? Because you can’t resist the urge to be a label dealer. It’s not entirely your fault, you have problems due to being (deep down) a nice conformist – the ‘go with the crowd’ mentality, it’s what you’ve been groomed to do – conform – like so many others. Sure, you obviously believe in independence for Cymru, but shudder at the thought of going against the conformist propaganda. We have a word for it ‘parchusrwydd’ (i’r drefn Galfinistaidd).

    As for Putin, based on his level headed actions and wise dealings over a prolonged period (not to mention extreme patience under provocation) I can say that I have been convinced, and I’m now a fan of his. I believe he is genuine, he certainly has not held back in exposing the NWO elites and he’s thrown out the corrupt ‘banksters’ from his country. Russia no longer deals with the likes of the Rothchilds & Rockerfellers – they’ve banished them. I suppose you know that the Rothschilds privately own every central bank in the western hemisphere? Including the Bank of England. However, if I was prone to believing propaganda and the demonisation of the Russians I would blame them for the next flat tyre I get – as the Anglo-American (NWO) empire would like me to do.

    •  

      ” I’m not interested in the shite that is written about them from dubious sources. ”
      Then perhaps you’d be interested in the shite straight from the horse’s mouth.
      http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x11n01_marine-le-pen-contre-la-langue-bret_news

      “If Marine Le Pen becomes president I will – as I’ve already said – judge her then on how she deals with the Celtic regions in France. If it’s negative I will be the first to react against her. If on the other hand she carries out the policies and the views that she has expressed then I will applaud her. ”
      Then read about her policies for the Bretons otherwise you don’t know what you’ll end up applauding.
      https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://www.udb-bzh.net/index.php/fr/communiques/4834-le-fn-veut-rayer-la-bretagne-de-la-carte&prev=search

      “What I won’t do is base my judgement on preconceived perceptions, based on negative propaganda by the mainstream. I’ve been on the receiving end of that nonsense and I’m buggered if I’ll inflict it on others.”
      You appear to empathise with le Pen despite the fact that she is the Breton equivalent of a Dic Sion Dafydd.
      I’m sure there are those campaigning against Welsh Medium education in Llangennech who genuinely believe that they have been targeted by “negative propaganda” also and probably a few Happy Donkey types feel the same way as well. I’m sure you don’t feel any empathy for them so why for Marine le Pen.

      If you don’t base your judgment on “preconceived perceptions” and aren’t aware o the words spoken, written or endorsed by Marine le Pen on our Celtic cousins what exactly are you basing your judgment of?

  37.  

    Big G, you’re getting rather too addicted to your own labels there. It’s not about me, or indeed you, or whether I’m a ‘conformist’ or you’re some prophet in the desert, it’s about whether you’re prepared to endorse Putin’s ex-KGB contemporary gangster state, mired as it is in corruption and extra-judicial killing, and think they have a place in running our democracies (however crap they are) with money, fake news etc , and Trump who is a pathological liar and large baby.
    Yesterday some of your brexiteering chums, and Llanelli boy, ‘Lord’ Howard threatened war with Spain.
    I do want Welsh independence, and I don’t believe that riding tigers like that advances our cause.
    If your definition of ‘conformism’ is that, then yeah ok.

    •  

      Oh dear! You seem to have fallen apart at the seams!

      I fear you have a bad case of mainstream ‘mediaitis’. I’m afraid there’s no more I can do for you. To ease the symptoms I suggest you sit down with a blanket over your knees and spend a few hours watching RT – it may help a little.

  38.  

    There are major similarities between Trump and the party he represents and Le Pen and FN. Substitute Steve Bannon and the other puppetmasters behind Trump for Jacques Chatillon a former activist and anti Semite of the far right GUD movement who would make Nick Griffin look like a choirboy. Chatillon is a prospective King or in this particular case a Queenmaker with strong ties to Eastern Europe and Syria through his company Riwal.He is a publicist, fund manager and strategist behind the current FN campaign and as such can frequently be seen lurking in the shadows at FN rallies. Misappropriation of EU funds, fund raising trips to the Kremlin and Trump Tower, join the dots and the trail leads to one man. If people think that voting for Le Pen may give them a female, nationalist president, maybe they need to think again.

  39.  

    […] post Welsh Independence, But For The Right Reasons appeared first on Jac o’ the […]

Ok, you’ve read what I think, now what do you have to say?